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Firstly, let me express my disappointment at the closing of yet another discussion thread, that people seemed to be having a reasonable, polite discussion about their feelings about not just the playtest, but the direction of travel in general. Before I could join in, it was closed.
The reasons given were:
1. that it had drifted from the OPs point - well yes that sometimes happens, d'uh, but also it hadn't, as the OP had given his POV, indicating he was interested in others', which is what they were giving.
2. that while it was appreciated that people wanted to compare editions, it wasn't helpful to Paizo's playtest process. Surely this is untrue? Do the Paizo staff really not care about the fans of P1e? Are our opinions irrelevant because we do not support the Playtest? Is a General Discussion of the Playtest area of the messageboards exactly where we should be able to have these conversations? Or does Paizo actually want us to just hide in a corner somewhere and shut up?
It is fascinating to me that when one of these threads is closed it usually has some sort of statement about hoping that the OP will come round to liking P2e, or will see that the final game will not be like the playtest. That seems to imply that Paizo thinks that these posters are just not understanding that it is a playtest. That when all the tweaks are sorted, with feedback from people (who already like the general direction of the edition), then everyone will come on board...with the brand new shiny books! Is that it? That sounds a bit arrogant. Or is it that they have already accepted that they are going to lose some of their customers. Which also sounds very confident, thinking that they are going to get more new customers than they are goimg to lose...
I wonder, as the title of the thread wonders, if there was ever a thought in Paizo, to keep supporting P1e? Even Microsoft supported Win98 for 8 years! I wonder if anyone in Paizo questions their decision to do so, when they see posts like this?
BTW, this is the thread I was alluding to...
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42d3r?I-feel-like-i-am-loosing-my-favorite-gam e
Director of Game Design
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We have announced that we will continue to publish the soft cover versions of the rulebooks as long as demand continues for them.
As for your other points, these boards are here to give us feedback on the playtest rules we have provided. To get to that feedback we must sort through all the threads on these boards, and threads that are not serving that purpose get in the way of us doing our work.
This thread seems to be talking about that board policy, and as such I am moving it to website feedback.
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The thread was essentially "I prefer 1E, 2E is just not to my tastes". That's a valid opinion, but on a feedback board based around improving explicit aspects of 2E, it didn't really provoke any critical discussion.
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I think Paizo absolutely has accepted that they are going to lose some of their customers, because they are not blind.
There exist, without question:
A) People who will not play PF2e if it is significantly different from PF1e
and
B) People who will not play PF2e if it is NOT significantly different from PF1e.
See, for example, threads where people have said +1/level is a dealbreaker, and threads where people have said removing +1/level is a dealbreaker.
Therefore, any choice Paizo makes is going to lose some customers, and trying to pretend that their product is for everyone - like many larger and shadier companies do - would be disingenuous.
I found it really refreshing that Paizo was willing to openly say "this game system is not likely to be what you want it to be" to some people, because to not say that is to try to hide the fact that it's obviously true.
As far as continued support for PF1e, I don't think Paizo has a compelling reason to develop new material for the system. The comparison to Windows falls a little flat due to the sheer difference in scale, IMO. There's a big difference between "these businesses' livelihoods depend on continued support for Windows 98 because they can't afford to transition" and "some of our former customers who aren't likely to buy our new product will be unhappy if we don't spend resources on the old product".
The name don't seem to fit the post you made at all... But yeah they did say they will be selling PF1 content for as long as they can(Well it makes them money after all. So as long as it there demand there will be sales.) But they probably won't release or support PF1 in PFS anymore as making retroactive adventures will be harder than keeping one version and probably will split even more an already split player base.
I don't think it's feasible or profitable to keep two editions at all, and seems like an bad idea when they will already have like 3 flagship products.
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Okay, so if the P2e playtest boards are not the place for voicing my opinion about the direction that P2e playtest has taken, where is?
Also, if only threads giving direct feedback about specific elements about the playtest are useful to you, and others 'get in the way of doing your work' why was this thread even read?
The title made it clear that I wasn't talking about that. It is clear that I wanted to discuss the specific and very early decision to end support for P1e (especially PFS).
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Okay, so if the P2e playtest boards are not the place for voicing my opinion about the direction that P2e playtest has taken, where is?
He just put it where this discussion should be... If you want to talk about PF1 support and PFS keeping PF1 it shouldn't be done in the PF2 playtest forum. Probably here on website support or on the Organized play part of the forum.
Also, if only threads giving direct feedback about specific elements about the playtest are useful to you, and others 'get in the way of doing your work' why was this thread even read?
Because they have to read posts they need to keep up the posts that are useful, close the ones that useless, change the ones that are in the wrong parts of the forum... So reading even useless threads is important to them.
The title made it clear that I wasn't talking about that. It is clear that I wanted to discuss the specific and very early decision to end support for P1e (especially PFS).
Yeah but you expended the first two big paragraphs of your post explaining how paizo is closing threads instead of talking about why should PF1 support keep going, or why PFS should keep PF1 as an option and how would that be good...
Also, printing rulebooks as long they sell? How does that work in your business model? We'll print a 1000, tben when we run out we'll print 10,000?
That is not what I mean by support...it is also an empty promise, who is going to buy these? The whiners, like me, who don't plan on switching, are going to buy the rulebooks that we already have for nostalgia's sake? Come on!
So practically straight away you are going to be able to say, 'ooo, no-one's buying them so we don't have to print them anymore'.
No, I mean support: P1e PFS games still alowed at Cons, Archives of Nethys and P1e messageboards. Or shall we all just migrate to other sites now?
Also, printing rulebooks as long they sell? How does that work in your business model? We'll print a 1000, tben when we run out we'll print 10,000?
Probably they will slowly phase out printing as sales grow to a halt and keeps pdfs up forever. It just seems like the way to go.
Basically slowly stop printing as the sales start not keeping up with printing and shipping costs. The books do need to make a profit and shelving product is pretty bad for business.
That is not what I mean by support...it is also an empty promise, who is going to buy these? The whiners, like me, who don't plan on switching, are going to buy the rulebooks that we already have for nostalgia's sake? Come on!So practically straight away you are going to be able to say, 'ooo, no-one's buying them so we don't have to print them anymore'.
Probably they won't because PF1 books make them money? But yes at some point people will start not playing PF1 and it will go in a decline without new content specially when most people should migrate to PF2 after all, but i think small subsets will still survive.(There are people that play AD&D to this day after all.)
No, I mean support: P1e PFS games still alowed at Cons, Archives of Nethys and P1e messageboards. Or shall we all just migrate to other sites now?
I think the message boards will still exist, PF1 is a important part of Paizo history and their blog is meant to keep people together. PFS PF1 thought... I think they won't be allowed(My opnion of course no facts on that) as they won't be releasing that material, maybe some shops will keep a few tables for old fans but i don't think there will be much in the way of the official support.
And 'archives of nethys' even if they have some relation to paizo they aren't exactly owned by them so they will probably keep the content up.Just saying all those answers are my opinion and i am in no way affiliated to Paizo xD
Organized Play Developer
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As far as PFS goes, we're not shuttering the doors or anything like that. We have a blog dropping soon where we'll be talking about what play in the first PFS campaign will look like (or at least what we think it will look like), and we're looking at providing organizers with the tools they need to continue supporting the current campaign into the future.
We won't be making more PF1 scenarios after the new edition drops; it's just not feasible as we already have an extremely aggressive publishing schedule where we're releasing 2 PFS and 2 SFS scenarios a month, as well as working on the Adventure Card Guild releases, sanctioning materials, supporting and attending conventions, creating charity boons, and working on various other supporting materials and events that all go into keeping an organized play campaign viable. But there's several hundred PFS scenarios and specials already in print, multiple sanctioned modules, and we should have most if not all of our adventure paths sanctioned for organized play use before all is said and done. We've also been talking to the community about what kind of replay environment can help keep the campaign viable without driving away essential members of the volunteer core who aren't interested in supporting a campaign with significant replay. It's a delicate balancing act to find the correct path forward for as many of our customers as possible, but the current PFS campaign isn't just getting dumped by the wayside.
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Also, printing rulebooks as long they sell? How does that work in your business model? We'll print a 1000, tben when we run out we'll print 10,000?
That is not what I mean by support...it is also an empty promise, who is going to buy these? The whiners, like me, who don't plan on switching, are going to buy the rulebooks that we already have for nostalgia's sake? Come on!
So practically straight away you are going to be able to say, 'ooo, no-one's buying them so we don't have to print them anymore'.
No, I mean support: P1e PFS games still alowed at Cons, Archives of Nethys and P1e messageboards. Or shall we all just migrate to other sites now?
How it works? PF2 hits, Paizo has x PF1 books in the warehouse. They look at how do they sell from then on. If they keep selling strong, they get reprinted. Whether they're being bought by PF1 holdouts, new players or collectors who are banking on a mint PF1 book having great value in 100 years now that it's OOP, it doesn't really matter. You just look at what your sales are and you're making your decision based on that. If in, say, 6 months after PF2 premiere your PF1 book sales amount to nothing, you don't reprint, you clear the warehouse with a massive discount and free up space for stuff that moves. If your PF1 sales are still solid, you reprint based on sales rate.
If you're making the assumption that they won't sell, well, maybe you'll be right and maybe you'll be wrong. Paizo, on the other hand, has the data on their sales and likely can predict the % of their customer base that will stick around with PF1 and continue buying PF1 material. So they likely can eyeball the numbers, which has led them to the "we'll reprint as long as it sells" statement, as opposed to "we won't reprint because we don't anticipate anybody buying them" or "we'll keep both lines in print since we anticipate that both will sell strong".
Estimating correctly your sales is one of the core elements of any business, and Paizo has been mostly on the ball with their predictions so far, some surprises aside (e.g. Beginner Box and Distant Worlds on the "welp, that exceeded our expectations" side and art books on the "welp, that didn't sell nearly as we expected to" side).
Also, fun fact pretty much nobody remembers about when talking about how companies should conduct their business: warehouses aren't bags of holding. They're one of the biggest limitations and headaches of any production business and you can't just print a zillion books "just in case", because they'll clog your warehouse shelf space and if they don't move, you just blew quite a lot of money which you'll barely claw back. Which means that in print business, you need to be VERY careful about your estimations.
Did someone do a reboot to Gorbacz to set him back to the 2008 standard? :p
Oholoko, I take your points...I do get a bit longwinded...
So back to the discussion point of the thread - does anyone think there is mileage in Paizo continuing support for P1e beyond publication of Pf2? Or is it just business suicide for them to contemplate it? Support, not just rulebook printing...
I am on the side of business suicide, but well... Third party content will keep going if you like those. But official paizo new support i see no way, formating, editing, writing and everything else take too much to make and well it seems not worth it.
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does anyone think there is mileage in Paizo continuing support for P1e beyond publication of Pf2?
Not viable.
First, I think it's a given that the edition change is happening because Paizo doesn't think PF1's market is viable mid/long-term even at 100% focus. If you expect you can't pay the bills two years from now producing all the PF1 you can, expecting that if you produce half the PF1 you'll turn a profit isn't likely.
Second, market dilution is a thing. If you accept that you're going to lose some existing customers with an edition change but expect that you're going to gain sufficient new customers to make it worthwhile, you don't want to risk your new market by splitting it. Sure, you get to keep (some of) your old customers, but you'll also have fewer people bother to invest in collecting all the new PF2 material. As in, anyone who was on the fence about edition change might continue to buy one PF1 product in four released, cherry-picking their favorites, instead of buying all new PF2 products because it's the hot new thing and they're starved for content.
Third, resources. It's hard enough to get things right when you have staff devoted to one system. Simultaneously juggling the development pipeline for multiple APs or rulebook extensions adds massive complexity. It sounds easy, but it really isn't at this scale. A huge company could dedicate full teams to each product line and there'd be no crossover. But we've established that Paizo likely can't make profit with a team dedicated to PF1, so they'd have to do overlap.
Fourth, creativity. You've only got one Richard Pett. He can only write so many words per calendar year. Do you contract him to produce two PF2 modules, two PF1 modules, or one each? How do you allocate the time of your fan-favorite writers and artists? If you keep the fan-favorite creators for PF2, once again you damage the PF1 brand's sales because you have (even slightly) less attraction. If you keep established creators on PF1, you remove a selling point from your shiny new edition.
Fifth, other reason I haven't thought of this early in the morning.
Basically, competing with their own product isn't viable. I honestly expect PF2 (in some form) is Paizo's necessity. My desire for more PF1, and my reactions for PF2's current form don't play into that.
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Contributor
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Also, fun fact pretty much nobody remembers about when talking about how companies should conduct their business: warehouses aren't bags of holding. They're one of the biggest limitations and headaches of any production business and you can't just print a zillion books "just in case", because they'll clog your warehouse shelf space and if they don't move, you just blew quite a lot of money which you'll barely claw back. Which means that in print business, you need to be VERY careful about your estimations.
On top of that, they're all still technically inventory, which can be burdensome for accounting and tax purposes. This is almost certainly why old 3.5 materials are sold at such a massive discount - at this point, they're probably costing Paizo more than they're worth vis-a-vis actual sales figures.
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Oholoko, I take your points...I do get a bit longwinded...
So back to the discussion point of the thread - does anyone think there is mileage in Paizo continuing support for P1e beyond publication of Pf2? Or is it just business suicide for them to contemplate it? Support, not just rulebook printing...
Oholoko?
Oholoko?Oholoko, I take your points...I do get a bit longwinded...
So back to the discussion point of the thread - does anyone think there is mileage in Paizo continuing support for P1e beyond publication of Pf2? Or is it just business suicide for them to contemplate it? Support, not just rulebook printing...
What is it?
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As far as PFS goes, we're not shuttering the doors or anything like that. We have a blog dropping soon where we'll be talking about what play in the first PFS campaign will look like (or at least what we think it will look like), and we're looking at providing organizers with the tools they need to continue supporting the current campaign into the future.
We won't be making more PF1 scenarios after the new edition drops; it's just not feasible as we already have an extremely aggressive publishing schedule where we're releasing 2 PFS and 2 SFS scenarios a month, as well as working on the Adventure Card Guild releases, sanctioning materials, supporting and attending conventions, creating charity boons, and working on various other supporting materials and events that all go into keeping an organized play campaign viable. But there's several hundred PFS scenarios and specials already in print, multiple sanctioned modules, and we should have most if not all of our adventure paths sanctioned for organized play use before all is said and done. We've also been talking to the community about what kind of replay environment can help keep the campaign viable without driving away essential members of the volunteer core who aren't interested in supporting a campaign with significant replay. It's a delicate balancing act to find the correct path forward for as many of our customers as possible, but the current PFS campaign isn't just getting dumped by the wayside.
I think Michael hits the nail on the head here. Our group has tried PF2, and it's not our cup of tea. I have, however, literally decades worth of gaming material with PF1, between scenarios and adventure paths, so it's not going to impact our gaming.
My only ask along these lines would be for a decent conversion document so that I can continue my subscriptions to the adventure paths but be able to convert them back to PF1.
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Is there anything posted about the extent to which PF1 content will remain available for PDF download?
From the Playtest FAQ:
Our First Edition PDF products will also remain available.