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Strangler sneak attack only applies on successful grapple checks to damage or pin.
Ambuscading grapple will be rough - they don't have to be able to perceive your current location, just be aware of your existence in the area in order to negate it.
Additionally, sap master requires you to "use a bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage to a flat-footed opponent"
That flat-footed requirement is a huge one. Flat-footed is a much different requirement than being denied dex to ac and flanking definitely does not make an opponent flat-footed.
So, IF you were hidden before combat started AND the enemy wasn't aware of your presence, AND you were able to close the distance to them and still make an attack BEFORE they've acted in combat... then you could use that attack to being a grapple check, triggering ambuscading grapple and dealing 1d6 regular sneak attack damage, or 2d6 nonlethal sneak attack damage. (only your rogue sneak attack dice apply here because you're not maintaining to deal damage or pin)
On the next round, your enemy will try to break the grapple (cmb checks will get more and more difficult for you to win as levels increase). If they fail, you could attempt to maintain the grapple to deal damage. If you succeed on that, you could apply your sneak attack damage from both sources for 3d6 sneak attack damage, but since the target is no longer flat-footed you couldn't apply sap master's bonuses to it. You could then use the strangler feat to deal your rogue sneak attack damage again as a swift action for another 1d6 damage, but your strangler class dice wouldn't apply because activating the feat is not succeeding at a grapple check to maintain/pin.
Really, the flat-footed is a big issue for the sap master stuff. Usually it's paired with scout and a charging build (hopefully with pounce) to maximize the benefits.
So, technically the build sort of works, just... not as well as you want it to.
Okay, here's the way I see your actions:
Round 1: Opponent unaware. Standard Action to grapple (this triggers Amuscading Grapple). Move action to maintain and damage.
Ambuscading Grapple: When you succeed at a combat maneuver check to grapple an unaware opponent, you can immediately deal sneak attack damage to the target.This counts as having hit with a sneak attack for the purpose of other abilities and talents.
Strangle: At 1st level, a strangler deals +1d6 sneak attack damage whenever she succeeds at a grapple check to damage or pin an opponent. The strangler is always considered flanking her target for the purpose of using this ability. This damage increases by +1d6 at 2nd, 8th, and 15th levels.
Strangler:Whenever you successfully maintain a grapple and choose to deal damage, you can spend a swift action to deal your sneak attack damage to the creature you are grappling.
The question is whether you can use both abilities together.
On one side, you can only use Strangle when you "succeed at a grapple check to damage or pin an opponent." When you make your first grapple check, you are NOT making a check to damage or pin, just to grapple.
On the other side, when you are using ambuscading grapple against an unaware opponent, it "counts as having hit with a sneak attack for the purpose of other abilities".
I'm not sold on that including Strangle simply because you can only use Strangle in very specific circumstances.
That said, let's assume both.
1) Ambuscading Grapple triggers Strangle:
grapple check (St) deals +6d6+6
greater grapple check (Mv) to maintain and deal damage deals +18d6+18
2) Ambuscading Grapple does not trigger Strangle:
grapple check (St) deals +2d6+2
greater grapple check (Mv) to maintain and deal damage deals +18d6+18
Both are nice, but this combo is only useful on the first round of combat before the target's initiative. If they are not considered unaware, it drops to:
grapple check (St) deals nothing
greater grapple check (Mv) to maintain and deal damage deals +12d6+12
and during a surprise round:
grapple check (St) deals nothing
(although, on the following round, if you get initiative, it's two grapple checks to damage at +18d6+18 each, or two at +12d6+12 if you don't)
At least, that's my back-of-the-envelope calculation.
Okay, here's the way I see your actions:
Round 1: Opponent unaware. Standard Action to grapple (this triggers Amuscading Grapple). Move action to maintain and damage.Ambuscading Grapple: When you succeed at a combat maneuver check to grapple an unaware opponent, you can immediately deal sneak attack damage to the target.This counts as having hit with a sneak attack for the purpose of other abilities and talents.
Strangle: At 1st level, a strangler deals +1d6 sneak attack damage whenever she succeeds at a grapple check to damage or pin an opponent. The strangler is always considered flanking her target for the purpose of using this ability. This damage increases by +1d6 at 2nd, 8th, and 15th levels.
Strangler:Whenever you successfully maintain a grapple and choose to deal damage, you can spend a swift action to deal your sneak attack damage to the creature you are grappling.
The question is whether you can use both abilities together.
On one side, you can only use Strangle when you "succeed at a grapple check to damage or pin an opponent." When you make your first grapple check, you are NOT making a check to damage or pin, just to grapple.
On the other side, when you are using ambuscading grapple against an unaware opponent, it "counts as having hit with a sneak attack for the purpose of other abilities".
I'm not sold on that including Strangle simply because you can only use Strangle in very specific circumstances.
That said, let's assume both.
1) Ambuscading Grapple triggers Strangle:
grapple check (St) deals +6d6+6
greater grapple check (Mv) to maintain and deal damage deals +18d6+182) Ambuscading Grapple does not trigger Strangle:
grapple check (St) deals +2d6+2
greater grapple check (Mv) to maintain and deal damage deals +18d6+18Both are nice, but this combo is only useful on the first round of combat before the target's initiative. If they are not considered unaware, it drops to:
grapple check (St) deals nothing
greater grapple check (Mv) to maintain and...
Oh yeah!
I was so concentrated on the abilities I didn't know that I missed the one I "did know" :P
As was pointed out, the flat-footed requirement of Sap Master is an issue for the extra dice and bonus damage. So forget most of what I said when it came to the numbers :D
I would recommend looking at swapping strangler with Snakebite Striker. This archetype will give you a non-situational sneak attack unlike strangler. By RAW you can't take both archetypes because strangler gives you stealth as a class skill. You might get your DM to allow it though since this is the only reason they don't stack which is silly since Snakebite Striker also gives you stealth as a class skill.
I would also suggest looking into the verdant grappler archetype. It stacks with the other archetypes legally and it gives you the ability to tie someone up without having to keep them grappled yourself.
Ambuscading grapple can be difficult to pull off, particularly since your race won't let you qualify for the feat Go Unnoticed. But, if you're able to make it work I would recommend grabbing the feat Bushwhack since it pretty much has the same requirements (unaware, flatfooted) and would just add to the situation you're creating.
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Thank you both for your insights, hopefully more people will take a look. Do you fine (probably)humans have any ideas for or know of a good knockout build? I've always loved grappling despite the rules being akin to that puzzle cube from Hellraiser. Pain to figure out, and once you do everything is on fire and the GM is standing in Hell, looking out over the lake of fire saying "You did this."
I have a bunch of stench grappler builds. which exploit the nauseated condition, making it a "knock out" build in that they are grappled and they can't do anything to escape the grapple (atleast until they make their save).
I developed this gem purely because I thought the rage power "body bludgeon" sounded like great fun :)
Foul Tornado (Barbarian)
Key concepts: A barbarian based stench grappler
Race: Human or Half-orc
Traits: Surprise Weapon, Rough and Ready
Class: Barbarian
Archetype: Deepwater Rager
Rage Powers: Brawler(2nd), Raging Grappler(4th), Suffocating Grip(6th), Brawler, Greater(8th), Body Bludgeon(10th), Suffocating Grip, Greater(12th)
Feats: Racial Heritage[Ogre](1st), Improved Grapple(2nd), Retrained Feat(3rd), Retrained Feat(5th), Greater Grapple(6th), Corrupted Flesh(6th), Improved Stench(7th), Pungent Stench (9th), Rapid Grappler(11th)
Suggested Feats: Body Shield, Chokehold, Hamatula Strike, Pinning Knockout, Sleeper Hold, Kraken Style, Kraken Throttle, Kraken Wrack, Grabbing Style, Grabbing Drag, Grabbing Master, Fetid Breath
Suggested Gear: Dan Bong, Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver[Grappling], Cord of Stubborn Resolve, Pauldrons of the Juggernaut
Key Features:
• Don’t have to charge in a straight line
• At 5th level you automatically sicken opponents you grapple
• At 9th level You have Stench (60 ft radius, DC 16+Con mod, 15 rounds)
• Your Stench ability will nauseate opponents and sicken them. Sickened applies a -2 to most actions and nauseate will prevent them from being allowed to make a grapple check to break free.
• At 10th level you can use your grappled opponent as improvised weapon against other enemies. You only suffer a -2 with such an improvised weapon unless you can find a profession that use people as "tools", or you pick up the feat catch off guard in which case you would actually get a +2 to hit with them.
• At 14th level you gain constrict
Very interesting. Going to add these ideas for future characters.
Thank you both for your insights, hopefully more people will take a look. Do you fine (probably)humans have any ideas for or know of a good knockout build? I've always loved grappling despite the rules being akin to that puzzle cube from Hellraiser. Pain to figure out, and once you do everything is on fire and the GM is standing in Hell, looking out over the lake of fire saying "You did this."
I like the Skulking Slayer/ Stalker combo, with Sap Master and Horn of the Criosphinx.
2d8+2 per odd level (nonlethal), double strength mod on first attack, looks like a barbarian but is really a rogue. If your opponents are spread out, you can charge, smash, charge, smash... so much fun!
If you can get power attack and the feat that ignores the penalty on the first attack, it's even better.