Ive been given the go-ahead to get the Nightmare Chains feat for thematic reasons, but I have absolutely no idea how it works.
Sorry if any of the answers are obvious, as you can tell from the "My Confusions" spoiler, I dont know where to start. I'd greatly appreciate the way this ability works being explained so i can be 100% clear before I use it...
It appears to me that it is a standard action to gain control of chains, after witch that control persists until it is broken or you end it (perhaps by controlling different chains).
Controlled chains largely function as if they were primary natural weapons, and your two chain will get attack bonuses and use abilities much as you would if you had a claw attacks. The 'chain attack' you get would function just like the Kyton chain attack i.e. 10 reach etc.
Controlled chains that aren't on your person can 'dance and move' but they don't have any sort of attack on their own and they don't take up space.
Basically, if you treat it as 2 natural attacks with a 10' reach and mostly ignore the rest of the ability as fluff it will probably work out better for you.
It appears to me that it is a standard action to gain control of chains, after witch that control persists until it is broken or you end it (perhaps by controlling different chains).
Controlled chains largely function as if they were primary natural weapons, and your two chain will get attack bonuses and use abilities much as you would if you had a claw attacks. The 'chain attack' you get would function just like the Kyton chain attack i.e. 10 reach etc.
Controlled chains that aren't on your person can 'dance and move' but they don't have any sort of attack on their own and they don't take up space.
Basically, if you treat it as 2 natural attacks with a 10' reach and mostly ignore the rest of the ability as fluff it will probably work out better for you.
Dancing Chains (which you gain) says "A kyton can control up to four chains within 20 feet as a standard action, making the chains dance or move as it wishes. In addition, a kyton can increase these chains’ length by up to 15 feet and cause them to sprout razor-edged barbs. These chains attack as effectively as the kyton itself. " which seems to imply the chains themselves can make attacks.
That would either mean the chains themselves are treated as creature-like and make their own attacks and/or that your two attacks with the chains could originate from different spaces up to 20ft away. In either case do you or the chains ever threaten from the spaces the chain attacks originate from, making flanking or AoO possible?
Also, if you do treat it like 2 natural attacks, can you use it in conjunction with other natural attacks or weapon attacks? If weapon attacks can also be made, are the chains treated as secondary and take a -5?
There are no attack stats (except for the chain attacks) anywhere in the bestiary entry. In addition the 'This grants you two chain attacks' language in Nightmare Chains strongly implies that the kyton chain attacks are gained from the dancing chains ability, and the 'attacks as effectively as the kyton itself' Dancing Chains ability is a reference to the natural attacks in the Kyton statblock.
Nothing is giving the supposed chain creature a space, a reach, a speed AC, HP, Saves or any other stats make them a creature. If that was happening, I'd expect to see something along the line of 'as animated object.'
The two chain attacks work just like other natural attacks, more similar to a tentacle than a claw as they wouldn't occupy a hand. If you also attack with a manufactured weapon, they chains will be secondary weapons and take the -5.
There are no attack stats (except for the chain attacks) anywhere in the bestiary entry. In addition the 'This grants you two chain attacks' language in Nightmare Chains strongly implies that the kyton chain attacks are gained from the dancing chains ability, and the 'attacks as effectively as the kyton itself' Dancing Chains ability is a reference to the natural attacks in the Kyton statblock.
Nothing is giving the supposed chain creature a space, a reach, a speed AC, HP, Saves or any other stats make them a creature. If that was happening, I'd expect to see something along the line of 'as animated object.'
The two chain attacks work just like other natural attacks, more similar to a tentacle than a claw as they wouldn't occupy a hand. If you also attack with a manufactured weapon, they chains will be secondary weapons and take the -5.
Theres nothing stating that the dancing chain attacks are natural attacks, and although the basic chain attacks appear like natural attacks in the kyton stat block, it doesnt say they are or that either are combinable with other attacks in the same way as natural attacks... Also, the "dancing chains" being listed separately from the basic chain attacks as a "special attack" in the entry implies that they or some aspects of them are not the same as the normal chain attacks.
Speed 30 ft.
Melee 4 chains +11 (2d4+2)
Space 5 ft; Reach 5 ft. (10 ft. with chains)
Special Attacks dancing chains, unnerving gaze
Regardless, even if the dancing chain special attacks were the same as the basic attacks and both were treated as natural attacks (for simplicity), they could still be controlled from spaces up to 20ft away as per the dancing chains ability, meaning they could attack from different squares, so would you threaten the spaces around them?
they could still be controlled from spaces up to 20ft away as per the dancing chains ability, meaning they could attack from different squares, so would you threaten the spaces around them?
The kyton stat block doesn't seem to have any such ability to attack outside of their chain reach. I think the whole 20' is really designed for special effect fluff and more out of combat utility type things.
Regardless, you only threaten squares that you can make a melee attack into. If you had some sort of 'chain attack at a range' that wasn't bound by the melee attack stats in the kyton stat block, I don't see how it could be considered a melee attack rather than something else.
Anyway, you are obviously in a pretty strange game with a GM that is making house rules, so you can ask him how it works. Even just getting 2 natural attacks for a feat is pretty darn powerful having it also create effectively animated objects that grant more attacks and threaten more areas and from different directions (so you could flank with yourself?) would be incredibly unbalanced in my opinion. My guess is unless the other PCs are getting equally powerful goodies, if you got all that it would damage the game and make it less fun (possibly ending it if other players decided they really couldn't compete anymore) but YMMV.
Since controlling them is a Standard action, it would be your attacks or else using the chains (one per chain).
The action isn't to gain control or activate them, it's to direct them.
As the feat says, "This grants you two chain attacks, which deal damage as per a spiked chain made for a creature of your size." So you get two attacks, one per chain.
The part about "These chains attack as effectively as the kyton itself." is due to the fact that the kyton isn't necessarily holding or touching the chains. They could just as easily use chains laying a few feet away or chains hanging on another creature.
Picture it as watching a Hellraiser movie. The kyton is standing there looking on as the chains around them rise up and attack at their direction. But the kyton has to use a standard action to do this directing.
Yes, it's likely that it would reduce your number of attacks, but it has the advantage of staying away from the fight physically in many cases. (Toss two chains over by the bad guys and then stand 20 feet away where they can't reach you.) Plus, you are getting 2 attacks as a standard action allowing you to use a move action as well in case someone gets near you.
In addition, every form of attack you could make with a spiked chain could be made with the controlled ones.. (trip, etc).. just make sure you get some magic chains in case of DR.
As for the flanking and AoO... that's a bit more nebulous.... there's nothing I could find that stated it officially one way or another, but if I was running the game (and with kyton eidolons available I've had to look at it), then I would do it this way (sort of a combination of animated object and dancing weapon):
I wouldn't allow them to make an AoO, because creatures get that, not objects.
I wouldn't allow flanking because they are objects and not creatures (the character could flank, but the weapon itself doesn't)
In other words, there's a lot of room where someone with this on a regular basis could really be overpowering without some limits. But, as Dave said... check with your GM.
<My 2 cents>
The kyton stat block doesn't seem to have any such ability to attack outside of their chain reach
"A kyton can control up to four chains within 20 feet as a standard action, making the chains dance or move as it wishes. In addition, a kyton can increase these chains’ length by up to 15 feet and cause them to sprout razor-edged barbs. These chains attack as effectively as the kyton itself."
Its not attacking outside of their chain reach, the ability says right there that the chains controlled up to 20ft away can make melee attacks, either directly by the user or by the chains that attack as effectively as the user.Regardless, you only threaten squares that you can make a melee attack into.
If the dancing chains ability attacks are made by you: You would threaten the squares with melee attacks from the dancing chains in the space.
If the dancing chains ability attacks are made by the chains: They would threaten the spaces around them as effectively as you would because the dancing chains "attack as effectively as the kyton itself". So either way the squares should threaten, right?
The problem I have with that reading is that if the special ability activated an attack, then it would seem to be it would have to be activated, not the 'unlimited duration' I assumed in my first post.
If it has to be activated, then it takes a standard action to do so, leaving you without any action to make attacks with the chains. That was part of why I assumed the ability was unlimited duration.
I think you really have three things going on
1) "A kyton can control up to four chains within 20 feet as a standard action, making the chains dance or move as it wishes." This is mostly a special effect, once in a while maybe with some utility.
2) "In addition, a kyton can increase these chains’ length by up to 15 feet and cause them to sprout razor-edged barbs." Also a special effect, looks hella cool but doesn't really mechanically do anything.
3) "These chains attack as effectively as the kyton itself" in other words, these chains give the kyton a chain attack that works like a natural attack.
I read this as three entirely separate things you can do with your chain power.
With or without the feat that gives it to someone else, That is how I understand that it works for they kyton. The kyton has a reach of 10' with the chain (note he may well be using a chain that measures more than 10 to achieve that, absolute max length of a weapon doesn't necessarily equate to the effective reach that a weapon is wielded at, portions of the chain may wind around his body, it may double up to make attacks or all sorts of possibly different visual effects.)
If the dancing chains ability attacks are made by you: You would threaten the squares with melee attacks from the dancing chains in the space.
If you are assuming that the dancing chains give you melee attacks with effectively a reach of 35' (chains 20' from you and 15' long) then yes I suppose you threaten, from your space, any creature in that area although it would be somewhat lessened as you would have to move chains around the battlefield and they don't have a speed so you have to invent mechanics for that too.
If the dancing chains ability attacks are made by the chains: They would threaten the spaces around them as effectively as you would because the dancing chains "attack as effectively as the kyton itself". So either way the squares should threaten, right?
Generally speaking, threatening and being able to take attacks of opportunity and provide flanking bonuses is a product of being a creature. A few spell effects can to this, but they are explicitly explained that they do so. If the chains are a creature, we are lacking a whole lot of information about them, knowing only that they attack as effectively as a kyton. We don't know how they move. We don't know their AC. We don't know their saves. We don't know their initiative or really any stats at all. It just doesn't make sense that that is true.
Since controlling them is a Standard action, it would be your attacks or else using the chains (one per chain).
The action isn't to gain control or activate them, it's to direct them.
If this is true, then the chains can't be used for an attack of opportunity or to threaten at all, since you can't take a standard action at that point.
How does this sound:
1: You gain 2 "natural” chain attacks as an extra when gaining the dancing chains ability. "You gain the kyton’s dancing chains ability... ...This grants you two chain attacks”. (This also accounts for the fact that the basic chain attacks and the dancing chain are listed separately in the kyton entry)
2: As a standard action, you can briefly animate up to 2 chains. In addition, you can increase these chains’ length by up to 15 feet and cause them to sprout razor-edged barbs (allowing them to attack as spiked chains) These chains can immediately make an attack action or full attack action "as effectively as you can" using your BAB and bonuses. The chains threaten around them during your turn, just as you do, but become inanimate after your turn.