Hi
So something is not clear to me. Once a character reaches BAB 6 it's capable of performing a full attack, i.e, consuming its entire turn to perform two attack. This is from a PC character sheet in my game:
Greatsword, Total Attack Bonus +16/+11
So the / separates the first attack from the second attack. I got it right so far?
But when I look at the Bestiary online, there are some monsters with a BAB of above 6 that don't seem to get a second attack. Just for example, an Undead Warlord, with a BAB of 9, fighting with a greatsword, does not appear to have a second attack:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/undead-warlord/
How does this work?
Thanks.
That undead warlord is a badly edited stat block from a third-party publisher. It should have a second iterative attack, and the threat range (17-20 for keen) is missing, too.
Compare that stat block to the astral deva:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/angel/astral-d eva/
Melee +2 disrupting warhammer +26/+21/+16 (1d8+14/×3 plus stun) or slam +23 (1d8+12)
It gets three attacks with its weapon due to high BAB (+15), but only one if using a natural attack.
OK, thank you.
So I guess pitting it against a 7th level PC is not recommended...
But I do like the idea behind the monster and it combines well with my campaign.
I know I'm changing the subject, but do you have some tips on how to downscale it? It has 12 hit dice, I need it at 8 or 9. I've never fiddled this way with monster stat blocks.
Or maybe there's a comparable monster with appropriate CR that can serve the same purpose?
This stat block is for 3.5 rules? Some things don't make sense to me...
Its statblock is based off Undead HD. You just take 3 or 4 of that sort of HD off. The Summoner has the same BAB and saving throw progression if you want to look at a table. Double check your results with the Undead Warlord's ability scores - I can see that the statblock doesn't have the saving throws right. The Undead Warlord should be gaining feats and ability score bumps at the same level as PCs. Reducing to 9 takes away his 11th level feat and his 12th level ability score boost, for example. NPCs automatically get 1/2 HD for HP - with Undead d8 that's 4.5.
The only unusual scaling things that the Undead Warlord has over other typical undead is SR and the Frightful Presence. Typically SR is HD+[a number], so that will just be reduced by 1 for each HD. The saving throw for Frightful Prsence should also be based of off HD, it's 10+1/2 HD+CHA.
It's not listed, but the Undead Warlord has a +5 Mithral Agile Breastplate. If they forgot the ACP (very likely given the other mistakes) it could also be +5 Mithral [any medium base +6 armor], +4 Mithral Tatami-do, or +3 Mithral O-Yoroi. That plus his Greatsword is a lot (roughly 60K gp equivalent, give or take). The statblock says he has double treasure, so if you wanted to keep that component, I'd gear him up using double Heroic NPC wealth from the Character Advancement and Level-Dependent Bonuses table. I'd consider dropping him to normal Heric NPC wealth, though, since even with vastly reduced wealth, he'll still be carrying something like 1/3 of an equivalent level PC's total wealth.
What things don't make sense to you?
Wow, I appreciate the effort, I really do, but this is way too advanced for me. I just want to keep the core idea of the Undead Warlord but have him be less strong so that a 7th level PC has a chance against him. But this sounds too complicated.
I might just fiddle with it and just lower his AC a bit and his ability scores so that his attack and damage rolls are not that high. It might not be exactly by the rules, but all I care about is to have an exciting scene for my players. I thought there might be a streamlined way to do it, but it seems there isn't.
Unless I'm misisng something, the core idea of the undead warlord appears to be most easily represented by just making a human cavalier or samurai with the skeletal champion template applied. Slap frightful presence and rejuvenation on for +0 or +1 to CR.
Yeah, this might work... and then I just give him some of the same feats from the Undead Warlord, plus it's special powers, as you said... it should serve the purpose, I think.
If you're looking for quick and easy, you could probably just do the opposite of the Advanced Template: -2 to all rolls, -4 to AC/CMD, -2 HP/HD.
Quote: Once a character reaches BAB 6 it's capable of performing a full attack, i.e, consuming its entire turn to perform two attack. Devil in the details (but since this is the rules forum), but no this is not what makes something capable of a Full Round Action/Full Attack. You can take a Full Attack with a level 1 Wizard whose BAB is +0. The capability to use a Full Attack option and having iterative attacks are not the same thing. That said there is usually little, if any, benefit to using a Full Attack unless you are capable of 2 or more attacks in a turn. Typically when your BAB is under +6/+1 it will be because some Feat or ability gives you the choice of multiple attacks such as Rapid Shot or fighting with two weapons (something your BAB +0 wizard could do, though with some truly large penalties to hit anything). Being under the effects of a Haste spell is another possible reason.
Yeah, I realize there are exceptions to the rule... but I meant that BAB 6 simply allows you to do it without any special circumstances. Someone pointed out above that you can even attack three times if your BAB is high enough. I was not aware of that...
In the Bestiary there are many monsters with natural attacks and high BAB that don't have a second attack in their stat block. Should I assume this only applies to the use of weapons? If so, how does that make sense? Why can't a creature bite or claw twice in one round?
you seem to be looking for a simple way to find an encounter/monster appropriate for a PC or Party. I'd suggest using Challenge Rating.
You will need to calculate the Average Party Level(APL) which is simply the levels of the party divided by the number of party members. So say you have a party of 6 with levels 7, 5, 6, 5, 8, 6. Their APL is 6.2. You can add 1 for there being 6 members(CRs target a party of 4 PCs) and +1 if they are really good builds for an adjusted APL of 7 or 8. A CR of APL+3 is considered tough, so a CR of 10 to 11 should be about right for a really tough fight.
For 1 on 1 the APL adjustment would be -2. Again, it becomes a ballpark kinda rating.
CRs are approximate so they are a guideline. You have to look at the creatures versus your party some will be weaker or tougher.
Lynos wrote: So I guess pitting it against a 7th level PC is not recommended... A single 7th level PC? Yeah, that'd be a CR+5 encounter. A CR+4 encounter is one were both sides are (about) equally strong, meaning there's a ~50% chance the PC(s) would loose. You generally don't want to go above CR+3 unless a) it's a non-lethal fight (e.g. gladiatoral combat not to the death), b) you want your party to have to retreat, c) it's the final boss, or d) you party is seriously over-min/max'ed.
Lynos wrote: In the Bestiary there are many monsters with natural attacks and high BAB that don't have a second attack in their stat block. Should I assume this only applies to the use of weapons? If so, how does that make sense? Why can't a creature bite or claw twice in one round? Because the rules say so: "When a creature’s base attack bonus reaches +6, +11, or +16, he receives an additional attack in combat when he takes a full-attack action (which is one type of full-round action—see Chapter 8)." (CRB pg. 11). For natural attacks a different rule applies: "You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack" (CRB pg. 182).
@Azonath: A more precise way is to calculate the experience for a CR+x encounter for each party member and add them together, and then using enemies granting that much experience. Let's say you want a CR+3 encounter for your party of six. Using this table, the total XP "budget" for that encounter would be 1200+1200+1600+1600+2400+3200=11200. That could be 3 CR7 monsters and a CR5 monster, for instance.
Thanks.
I used the skeletal champion template with a cavalier class as suggested here instead of the official stat block.He still has powerful attacks but they are not devastating as before. Hopefully it will present a nice challenge. By the way, the Undead Warlord does not kill its enemies, if they are reduced to 0 or below he just walks away and leaves them be, and we do have a cleric and a ranger, so...
But of course, the intended outcome is for the PC to win.
Here's a quick comparison, would love your take on it re:the challenge. It's an important part of the campaign. (btw, the fight will not be mounted):
Undead Lord (edited)
Human Skeletal Champion (Medium) CR 7
XP 3200
Any Medium Humanoid (Undead) Undead traits
Cavalier level 7 Sword (Order of the Sword Cavalier)
Init +5; Senses Darkvision 60; Perception +5
DEFENSE
AC 20, Touch 11, flat footed 19 ( Field Plate, Shield, none)
(+1 Dex, +2 Natural, +7 armour)
hp 77 (0d8+2d8+7d10+18+7);
Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +6
Channel Resistance +4, Damage reduction 5/bludeoning, Immunity to cold
OFFENSE
Speed 20
Melee
Single Attack(+1/+1) Greatsword +14 (2d6+7/17-20) Keen
Full Attack
(+1/+1) Greatsword +12/7 (2d6+7/17-20) Keen
Space 5ft.; Reach 5
STATISTICS
Str 19, Dex 13, Con 0, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 14
Base Attack 8 CMB 12 ; CMD 23
Feats
Two-Weapon Fighting: Get extra attack at -2 to all attacks,
Armour Prof Heavy,
Armour Prof Light,
Armour Prof Medium,
Improved Initiative: +4 Initiative checks,
Leadership: Attract cohort and followers,
Martial Weap Prof,
Power Attack
Weapon Finesse: Use DEX mod instead of STR mod for melee attack to hit,
Weapon Focus: +1 to attack rolls,
Barbarian Half-Orc (edited)
HP: 96 (may not be maximized)
AC: 13 (while in rage)
Offense: Melee, +2 flaming Great Sword, +13/+8
Relevant feats: Power Attack
STR 22
DEx 16
CON 18
INT 10
WIS 11
CHA 9
Has cure potions.
Lynos wrote: Someone pointed out above that you can even attack three times if your BAB is high enough. I was not aware of that... The actual limit is 4 attacks do to BAB --> +16/+11/+6/+1 or greater such as is the case with a Solar or a high level Fighter (or Paladin or Ranger or ... ). Bolding below mine:
Gamemastering, Beyond 20th Level wrote: Scaling Powers: Hit dice, base attack bonuses, and saving throws continue to increase at the same rate beyond 20th level, as appropriate for the class in question. Note that no character can have more than 4 attacks based on its base attack bonus. Note also that, before long, the difference between good saving throws and poor saving throws becomes awkwardly large—the further you get from 20th level, the more noticeable this difference grows, and for high-level characters, bolstering their poor saving throws should become increasingly important. Class abilities that have a set, increasing rate, such as a barbarian's damage reduction, a fighter's bonus feats and weapon training, a paladin's smite evil, or a rogue's sneak attack continue to progress at the appropriate rate.
If a creature uses both iterative attacks and natural attacks, there are some more rules:
1) You cannot use a limb for both an iterative attack and a natural attack.
2) All natural attacks are at -5.
Also, iterative attacks are usually done via class levels while natural attacks are inherent to the creature type.
/cevah
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Cevah wrote:
Also, iterative attacks are usually done via class levels while natural attacks are inherent to the creature type.
/cevah
This is inaccurate and could lead to a fundamental misunderstanding of the rules. Class levels have nothing to do with iteratives (beyond providing base attack, same as non class HD). The key distinction is manufactured weapons as seen with the Solar and Deva mentioned above that have no class levels and use iteratives.
In additon, creature type has absolutely nothing to do with natural attacks. And while it's true natural attacks are in general most often granted by the creature's form (a dog has a bite because it's a dog, and polymorphing grants all the natural attacks of the chosen form), for PCs, natural attacks granted by non-form options are just as common (from rage powers for instance).
Attacks with manufactured weapons and unarmed strikes have iterative attacks, attacks with natural weapons don't. That's the rule, no need to complicate it with anything. It's no like it's overly confusing or hard to remember, is it now?
Recent threads in Rules Questions
|
