In the current game I'm in, Wrath of the Righteous, my character worships Torag (Iomedae and Iori as well. Our group is a Cleric, Paladin, UnRogue, and UnMonk (me). Being a worshiper of Torag, my monk is a crafter, not just a character with the craft skill, but it's what he does and part of who he is.
Since that is the case, I'm planning on him taking the Master Craftsman feat and eventually using the Mythic ability Path Dabbling to pick up the Archmage's Crafting Mastery.
At least I was. But now, I don't know if it would be necessary to even take the Master Craftsman feat.
Unless I'm mistaken, with the Crafting Mastery ability, I could craft anything, by increasing the DC by +5 (to bypass the CL requirement) and another increase of +5 (to bypass the needed Spellcraft or specific craft skill), for a total of +10. The only exception I can see is this:
you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites
If I'm right, then with the Crafting Mastery ability, to craft an Amulet of Mighty Fists (+1 through +5), my monk would need to beat a crafting DC of 5+5(CL of item)+15(+5 bypass CL of item, +5 spell requirement, +5 bypass needing a CL of 3 times the amulet's bonus) = 25.
Or a Folding Boat: 5+6(CL of item)+15(+5 bypass CL of item, +5 bypass spell requirement, +5 bypass craft(ships) skill) = 26.
Or a Ring of Swimming: 5+2(CL of item)+10(+5 bypass CL of item, +5 bypass swim skill) = 20.
I'm pretty sure the only reason this seems to work is because of the Mythic ability, as without it, the only magic items one can create without having a CL is Magic Arms and Armor and Wondrous Items (with the Master Craftsman feat).
Am I right in my thinking, or have I missed/misunderstood something?
"you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites"
mean that wands(or staves etc) scrolls or potions. basicly itms that just cast a spell must have the spell needed in the creation cast whie creating the item.
most magic items have spells in their crafting list. BUT not all of them cast spells when used. amulet of many fists for exmaple uses a spell to make but does not cast a spell when used. the 'cannot be created without the spell' is only the spell casting items (if you look at the example of taking +5 to ignroe requirment it mantion not having the spell for normal magic item, and even specify that for items that cast spells it can't be ignored). do notice that making spell casting items can still be made if you have the right feat and not the spell if you cna get some1 else to cast the spell for you while you craft (the spell doesn't have to coem form the crafter). BUT the specific feat master craftsman is something else. read the next part.
in the feat you mantioned specificly :
" Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item."
it goes like this: you do not need caster levels for getting the craft wondrius items feat or craft magic arms and armor. nor for crafting items with said feats.
to take these feats normaly one need a minimum of caster level, 3 for wondrius and 5 for arms and armor. with it you are able to count the skill ranks as caster level to qulify as caster level,it only let you count the skill as caster level for taking the feats
- you still need to take the said feats to be able to craft!! after you do the skill ranks count as caster level, so if an item need caster level 11 and you got 11 ranks or more you do not even need to add +5 to the dc. if you have less adding +5 will allow to create with a succesful skill check (must be the crafting skill picked when taking the feat).
as the feat say, items that cast spells like wands,scrolls,potion etc) can not be made by using this specific feat. not even if you havee some1 who can cast the spells for you.
The main reason I posted here is because I thought I would have to take Master Craftsman, but I looked at the Archmage ability closer, which allows a character to craft any magic item as if they had the necessary item creation feet.
Crafting Mastery (Ex): You can craft any magic item as if you had the necessary item creation feats. If you actually have the item creation feat needed for a magic item you’re crafting, whenever you attempt a skill check to create that item, roll twice and use the higher result, and you make twice as much progress on the item for any time spent. This ability does not reduce the item’s cost or any other requirements.
A FAQ was pointed out in a reddit thread that says the only thing that cannot be bypasses by adding +5 is 1) needing to have the item creation feat (which the Crafting Mastery Archmage ability covers) and 2) you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites (no way around this unless I can use UMD with scrolls?).
To me that does seem as if needing a specific craft skill isn't needed, IF +5 is added to the DC to bypass it. Which would mean, I could use any crafting skill, not just spellcraft or have to take Master Craftsman and select one to use.
But I could be misunderstanding it, that's one of the reasons I posted here.
You don't need to take Master Craftsman if you have Crafting Mastery; all it'll do is give you a +2 in your chosen craft.
However, that doesn't mean you can use any skill to make anything. The magic item creation rules have, for each type of item, a line like "Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft or Craft (armor)." You need to use one of those skills. This is a rule, not a mere item prerequisite, so you can't skip it.
If you haven't already pumped up some particular Craft skill, I recommend Craft(jewelry) for the widest variety of magic items. You can use that for any ring, any rod, any staff, any wand, and a wide selection of wondrous items. Can't make armor or weapons with it, of course.
Also, you can certainly meet spell prereqs (of any item) with scrolls, wands, or friends, and using UMD on them (except the friends) is not a problem. But remember you need to provide each spell every day of the crafting. So if you're making an item whose price is 50,000 (cost to you 25,000), it takes 50 days, so you need to provide 50 castings of each spell.
And Meirril, calm down. The OP already said they're getting Crafting Mastery via Path Dabbling, not by taking the actual path.
Meirril -
Your rude, condescending, and disrespectful attitude is not appreciated, nor welcome. Please refrain from posting in this thread again. If you do decide to post again, you will be ignored. Thanks.
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Fuzzy -
I completely forgot about needing the spell(s) every day while crafting the item. For some reason, I was thinking it only needed to be done once (can't explain why I thought that). Thanks for reminding me of that bit.
for each type of item, a line like "Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft or Craft (armor)." You need to use one of those skills. This is a rule, not a mere item prerequisite, so you can't skip it.
You've hit the nail on the head here, as this part of what I'm confused on/unsure of (though it seems straightforward). In that same section, as a rule, one must have a specific item creation feat and use Spellcraft or a specific craft skill, yet, that FAQ says:
As presented on page 549 of the Core Rulebook, there are no limitations other than (1) you have to have the item creation feat, and (2) you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites. So racial requirements, specific spell requirements, math requirements (such as "caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus"), and so on, are all subject to the +5 DC rule.On page 549 it says:
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created.
Nowhere in the item descriptions does it say 'prerequisites', just 'requirements'. As I understand it, Paizo does try to be specific with their wording, and by using 'prerequisites' instead of 'requirements', it means all prerequisites, which would include the the skill used in the crafting and all of the requirements of the item itself.
This seems as if it would apply to, the rules part you mentioned, only the item creation feat cannot be bypassed by adding +5 to the DC. (If this was the case, then obviously the skill used in the crafting would have to make sense, thus some sort of craft or appropriate profession skill would be needed, such as blacksmith.)
Or is this a case of the wrong word being used on page 549/all magic item descriptions?
If you could skip the skill/spellcraft requirement, you wouldn't have to roll anything. You'd have a DC floating naked in space. Substituting one thing (like your skill) for another is not the same as skipping the second thing.
You don't think you can skip paying the gp cost by increasing the DC, do you? Or the days it takes? Yet those are the same kind of requirement as the skill roll.
EDIT: BTW, you don't need to have a CL to use Spellcraft for the roll, so if you want to be able to make anything magical, pump your Spellcraft instead of Craft(whatever). Though I realize it's less Torag-y.
You still need spellcraft even with Crafting Mastery. All it does is give you the equivalent of the crafting feat. You still have to make the roll, and spellcraft is a trained only skill. Master Craftsman allows you to use an appropriate craft skill in place of spellcraft, but there are sever limitations. First the craft skill only works for items that can be created with the skill. Second it only works for a single skill, not all your craft skills. Since Master Craftsman does not say it can be purchased multiple times it cannot.
If you are ok with spending a feat, and a mythic path ability to create a limited set of magic items it will work. You will also probably need to max out your craft skill to handle the penalties for not meeting the prerequisites. If you really want to do what you say take a trait to make spellcraft a class skill and max that out.
I'm not ignoring what you guys have said, as the consensus is this: To be able to make a magic item, the skill to use is listed in the Magic Item Creation section of the Core Rulebook (pages 550-553), and it cannot by bypassed by adding +5 to the DC to craft said magic item, because it is not in the requirements section of the items.
Also that, though it isn't in line with the character concept of crafting like Torag (but does fulfill the concept of being the crafting character), in some way gain&pump ranks into Spellcraft as much as possible.
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If you could skip the skill/spellcraft requirement, you wouldn't have to roll anything. You'd have a DC floating naked in space.
Not exactly, at least how I'm understanding things.
You are still crafting something, so you have to roll a craft skill (spellcraft counts for this, obviously). Normally you also need to have the spell, CL, and any other thing the item requires, such as a number of ranks in a certain skill, be of a certain race, speak a certain language, be of a class that has a certain ability, etc. If you do not, you can bypass it by adding +5. You aren't just skipping them, you're bypassing them buy you're ultimately making it harder to create the item by doing so.
So if you have craft(weapon) and you are making an item but you do not have the CL, the spell, or the ranks in a specific skill (say swim), you increase it by +5 each, for a total of +15, that's not in question. If the item you're making is a ring and would normally use Spellcraft or Craft(jewelry), you instead use craft(weapon) but add +5, which would be a total of +20.
Also IF Spellcraft or Craft(jewelry) is a requirement, why is it not listed in the Requirements section of the item? To me this says that it isn't a requirement of the item. I contrast this with every other magic item listing it's item creation feat as a requirement.
If it is how you (and others) are saying, where both the feat and the skill needed to make an item is listed in the Magic Item Creation section, then why would, in the requirements section of each magic item, it list only the item creation feat as a requirement and not the craft skill(s) as well?
I see a few options:
1) It is suppose to be a requirement, but for whatever reason, was not added to the Requirements section of magic items.
2) It isn't a requirement.
3) The item creation feat shouldn't be in the Requirement section of magic items because it is covered in the Magic Item Creation section of the Core Rulebook.
Depending on the above:
1a) If it is suppose to be a requirement then the FAQ would apply and it could be bypassed by adding +5 to the DC.
-OR-
1b) It would be listed as a 3rd thing that could not be bypassed by adding +5 to the DC.
2) If it isn't a requirement, then you can use any craft skill to make these items as long as you have the appropriate Item Creation feat.
3) Since they wouldn't be in the Requirements section, there would not be in the FAQ about the prerequisite bypassing by adding +5 part of page 549.
You don't think you can skip paying the gp cost by increasing the DC, do you? Or the days it takes? Yet those are the same kind of requirement as the skill roll.
Obviously not the cost because it is not part of the Requirements, it's a different part under the construction section, so it does not apply. The time it takes is not the same as the others as it does not say something like, 'must have 25 days free to make this item', it is explicitly dependent on the cost to create the item. Making this comparison does not make sense and seems silly (which I get it, that was the point).
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Below is probably more geared towards the Advice section than rules, but since it was brought up here, it seems as if it would make sense to continue it instead of making an entirely new thread.
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(Currently the character roadmap I've got would have taken advantage of Skill Focus (+6), Prodigy (+4), Crafter's Fortune (+5), Cracked Magenta Prism Ioun Stone (+2), and either Masterwork Tools (+2) or Amazing Tools of Manufacture (+4), which would give a total skill bonus to crafting of +19-21. (My GM was going to allow me to take Mythic Master Craftsman (a third party feat), which is how I'd, at least partially, reduce the DC by not having to bypass each spell by adding +5. And I'd be dipping Sorcerer to gain a Valet Familiar.)
My character already has both Spark of Creation and Patient Calm (and the campaign trait Stolen Fury). I may be able to convince my GM to let me change them since I haven't actually used them IC yet.
Stranger -
You mentioned traits gain spellcraft as a class skill, is there one you'd recommend? What about ways to boost spellcraft checks, beyond Skill Focus? Most things that I can think of do not apply to spellcraft, so I'm at a bit of a loss if I were to go the spellcraft route.
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This question appears to have little to do with the archmage ability (which lets you act as though you had Craft Wondrous Item/Craft Magic Arms & Armor/etc.) and everything to do with a misunderstanding of what is meant by a prerequisite.
Prerequisites are the entries listed under "Construction requirements", excluding the part after "Cost" along with any prerequisites inherent to the type of item being crafted (in the case of spell-trigger items, spell-completion items, and potions). Of those things, anything that isn't (a) an item creation feat or (b) a spell prerequisite for a spell-trigger item, spell-completion item, or potion can be skipped by adding +5 to the DC of the skill check you use to craft the item.
Note that the skill check itself (nor the skill underlying it) is not a prerequisite--rather, it is the action by which you craft the item. It cannot be bypassed. Similarly, which skill you use to make the check is not a prerequisite. You cannot simply choose to use Craft (stonemasonry) to make a periapt of health by taking a +5 to your Craft (stonemasonry) DC as there is no such check involved in crafting the item--you'd need either Spellcraft, Craft (jewelry), or some other skill that is applicable for making an amulet.