Consolidated Paladin Concerns

[HWalsh]

I am collecting the main Paladin Concerns here in one thread:

1. What does Warded Touch actually do? Some people claim that a Dev, Mark Seifter I believe, said that it allows you to use Lay on Hands while your hand is not free (IE holding a shield) can we get a Dev confirmation on this?

2. Blade of Justice is incredibly weak for its level. It costs an action to activate, which is basically the same as Power Attack. Power Attack is 2 actions and adds an entire die. Blade of Justice adds +1 per die your weapon has, that is, less than good. We would ask this to be looked into. Contrast with Power Attack, which is level 1, and does much more and Blade of Justice is level 6.

3. Retributive Strike literally only works for melee characters. Leaving Paladins of Erastil completely in the cold. They literally cannot use this when using their Deity's Favored weapon. Also many Paladin players have reported feeling that it is too reactive as the requirements to use Retributive Strike don't work easily with most favored weapons (as they are not reach) making it harder to use than other reactions, such as Attack of Opportunity. Maybe this could be looked at.

4. Tangental - Full Plate is the iconic Paladin Armor, yet in PF2 it is a level 2 armor (the only level 2 armor) and is in many ways worse than other armors. Due to it being a higher level, as well as having all of its extra riders, it should have the highest AC combined with max dex for it (+1) currently all armors cap out at 7. This should cap out at 8 at the least, possibly 9. (meaning a base AC of +7 or +8 rather than +6)

Others, please add your concerns here...

[SwordOfTheLaw]

2. On top of being way too weak as the OP says, Blade of Justice really should be something that every Paladin can do regardless of what Righteous Ally they picked.

3. A few ways to improve Retributive Strike I can think of:
- Let it be triggered on an attack against the Paladin themselves, but if the Paladin uses it in that situation, the attack is made at -5 instead of -2.
- As part of the power, allow the Paladin to move 5 feet (or 10 maybe?) without drawing an Attack of Opportunity before making the attack. Make the trigger range weapon reach plus however many feet they can move on the reaction.
- And yeah, let it be used with a ranged weapon.

Also, 5. The 20th level feats are just generally underwhelming.

[PossibleCabbage]

-Since the primary value of taking an advanced domain for a Paladin will be "more spell points for LoH" (as "more healing" will never be inapplicable in a day where spell points are scarce, but some advanced domains are situational), we've got a strange asymmetry where some deities are stronger choices because they have an advanced domain power that costs 3 spell points regardless of what the domain power actually does.

Like Iomedae, Sarenrae, and Irori have 3 SP domain powers, but Abadar, Torag, Shelyn, and Erastil are not so lucky. Perhaps Advanced Domain should just give you the same number of spell points no matter what you pick, so we don't end up in situations where people are altering their character concepts so they can heal more. Note that Clerics don't have this issue since their "this is almost always useful" resource (channel) doesn't intersect with spell points.

[master_marshmallow]

My math shows that abilities which tax you actions should be contributing to the attack bonus more than damage, marginally increasing your potential to crit which is more important than damage.

Personally, I would like to see every class invoke some MAD, and be able to use their ability scores to certain abilities over the course of their character, rather than having a bunch of +1s and +2s spread over multiple feats and multiple levels. Your ability scores in secondary stats will pretty much always be +2 or +3 and they scale up with you as you level in a very controlled way anyway, seems asinine not to use them to the advantage that the less boni providing engine gives us. Divine Grace should be the core option, being a reaction to add CHA to saves or AC, making the paladin truly the defensive class. Retributive Strike should be a feat. Smite Evil can be a feat that adds CHA to hit and damage for a round, replacing blade of justice, and the other silly feats that you get taxed to go into combat.

Why does the combat feat for paladins at level 12 add 1 good damage? 1 damage for a 12th level feat?

That and, I would prefer a generic class that functions for knights that can also give us a hellknight, and an antipaladin just off the base mechanics i.e. incorporate multiple alignments. This can be done as your choice at 3rd level or whatever instead of your Righteous Ally which really isn't a choice if you plan on doing combat at all.

[HWalsh]

master_marshmallow wrote:

My math shows that abilities which tax you actions should be contributing to the attack bonus more than damage, marginally increasing your potential to crit which is more important than damage.

Personally, I would like to see every class invoke some MAD, and be able to use their ability scores to certain abilities over the course of their character, rather than having a bunch of +1s and +2s spread over multiple feats and multiple levels. Your ability scores in secondary stats will pretty much always be +2 or +3 and they scale up with you as you level in a very controlled way anyway, seems asinine not to use them to the advantage that the less boni providing engine gives us. Divine Grace should be the core option, being a reaction to add CHA to saves or AC, making the paladin truly the defensive class. Retributive Strike should be a feat. Smite Evil can be a feat that adds CHA to hit and damage for a round, replacing blade of justice, and the other silly feats that you get taxed to go into combat.

Why does the combat feat for paladins at level 12 add 1 good damage? 1 damage for a 12th level feat?

That and, I would prefer a generic class that functions for knights that can also give us a hellknight, and an antipaladin just off the base mechanics i.e. incorporate multiple alignments. This can be done as your choice at 3rd level or whatever instead of your Righteous Ally which really isn't a choice if you plan on doing combat at all.

The 12th level feat is always active, costs no actions and effects allies, so... It could be worse...

Edit to add:
As always I am firmly against incorporating multiple alignments on Paladins.

[master_marshmallow]

HWalsh wrote:

master_marshmallow wrote:

My math shows that abilities which tax you actions should be contributing to the attack bonus more than damage, marginally increasing your potential to crit which is more important than damage.

Personally, I would like to see every class invoke some MAD, and be able to use their ability scores to certain abilities over the course of their character, rather than having a bunch of +1s and +2s spread over multiple feats and multiple levels. Your ability scores in secondary stats will pretty much always be +2 or +3 and they scale up with you as you level in a very controlled way anyway, seems asinine not to use them to the advantage that the less boni providing engine gives us. Divine Grace should be the core option, being a reaction to add CHA to saves or AC, making the paladin truly the defensive class. Retributive Strike should be a feat. Smite Evil can be a feat that adds CHA to hit and damage for a round, replacing blade of justice, and the other silly feats that you get taxed to go into combat.

Why does the combat feat for paladins at level 12 add 1 good damage? 1 damage for a 12th level feat?

That and, I would prefer a generic class that functions for knights that can also give us a hellknight, and an antipaladin just off the base mechanics i.e. incorporate multiple alignments. This can be done as your choice at 3rd level or whatever instead of your Righteous Ally which really isn't a choice if you plan on doing combat at all.

The 12th level feat is always active, costs no actions and effects allies, so... It could be worse...

But blade of justice could be better, and then it wouldn't need to exist and I could have more free choices in builds.