Builds / Concepts that are easier under the new rules

[Lanathar]

I am not sure if this is the right forum for this or if this is a General Discussion piece but...

Are there any builds or concepts that seem easier to pull off (or seem like they are going to be easier to pull off) under the the new rules system

I suppose concepts might not be quite the right word as that is helped massively by background rather than class

But there are some ideas that seem easier to achieve that

1- 1E in general
2- core of 1E (even with core being stretched to APG)

For 1 :

- a pure caster cleric seems like the way to go now and I am in favour as I never was a massive fan of the legacy 3.5 (or perhaps earlier but 3rd was when I started) heavily armour priest with a mace

- mystic theurge looks possible from the get go

- new multclassing allows for “sneaky” versions of many classes. Again I was frustrated that if I wanted a true cleric that reflected calistria or norgorber that it wasn’t really doable without lagging in spells or going Inquisitor

For 2:

- a magus looks possible with the 4th level feat and fighter multiclass. And I feel sure there will be more relevant feats and more ways of doing this with the full book

Has anyone else spotted anything fun ?

[Xenocrat]

A wizard bard who focuses on spellcasting and lore skills but has light armor and some weapons for backup is pretty viable.

[Paradozen]

Two-Weapon Fighting in a way that seems rewarding seems easier to me. The benefit is small if you don't invest in Double Slice (which might require multiclassing) but you don't need a feat for TWF to be feasible. As an extension, asymmetrical Two-Weapon Fighting does better in PF2 than in PF1. Before it took twice the feat investment to effectively use two weapons if you took anything that focused on one single weapon. Now, this problem is less common, so fighting with a Rapier and a Main-Gauche or a Longsword and Shortsword works better.

A Universalist Wizard is far more rewarded for a lack of specialization in the new game, since they get more uses of Drain Arcane Focus (as well as other features). A caster with an arcane bond item is also less punishing because, worst case scenario, you can pick another item to bond with the next day.

A shapeshifter that goes from being a fairly weak magician to a fairly competent warrior is much easier with the new polymorph rules, though it is higher level. The spells with battle form seem to raise you to being a decent match for anything of your level when you get them, and can be heightened to help scale.

A Mounted Warrior seems a bit better with the Cavalier archetype. Though I'll need to wait for goblin dog animal companions before I feel like a really good dungeon-friendly option is around. The only small ancestry without a strength penalty has a cultural hatred for ponies and horses, and the only animal companion with the mount trait is the Horse or Pony.

A mobile warrior works better due to the new action economy. Anyone can move and attack twice, fighters and barbarians (and fighter MC's) can invest in getting to move further and attack twice, haste and its kin let you move and attack thrice, etc. Generally the new action economy seems to support moving more than the old. Also, AoO being less common means mobile fights are easier to see.

A shielded warrior now is better because you don't have to be TWFing to keep up offensively, and the defensive benefit seems much higher than it used to be if you are fine with the action cost each round.

[Red Griffyn]

Lanathar wrote:

- mystic theurge looks possible from the get go

One difficulty with a spell caster multi-class spell caster is that spell casters get less feats. This is of particular annoyance at L12 when they get their expert spell casting class ability instead of a feat. That means getting any spells of 4th level or higher have to wait until L14. Similarly they don't get a L16 feat so you can't pick up the 'extra spell slot' multi-class feat until L18 (if you don't take master spell casting) or L20. The alternative is using a L10 or lower feat, which only nets you 1 extra L1 spell for a minimum of 4 levels until L14 when you can take the expert spell casting feat. This could be remedied by giving every class more feats (equal # of feats, more feats, or at more appropriate levels) or by removing some of the feat taxes for the multi-classes (i.e., to get higher level spells or get more slots). Multi-classing out of sorcerer is also harder because they have even fewer feats than other casters, who have less than martials.

This makes mystic theurges actually harder to achieve than before despite the what people keep stating because the only thing they cite is the lack of lost spell access/dead levels. However, in 1e an early entry mystic theurge via SLAs or equipment trick (sunrod) could have their primary prepared spell casting class receive spells at the same rate as a spontaneous class (i.e., 1 level delayed), while still having tons of spell slots in BOTH classes (at least 6 per level in main and 3-4 in secondary). Now it is 3-4 in the main class (no delay) and 1 in the secondary (maybe 2 in lower level slots at L20), which I don't think is more powerful. 1e low level spells could easily be used for buffs (invisibility, resist energy, heightened awareness, bulls strength, etc.) and it didn't matter that they were low level.

That being said multi-classing into wizard in 2e opens up almost all of the magical staves, which can really help a mystic theurge build (I have a cleric into wizard on these forums that I do want to play despite my critique).

A martial multi-classing into caster doesn't suffer that same 2 level delay since they have a 12th level feat. There appears to be a meta around a true strike -> Magical Striker -> Swipe as a fighter multi-classing into wizard (or a wizard multi-classing into fighter). Since higher level spell slots don't matter as much when you just want to true strike everything, you don't suffer as much as a spell caster-spell caster multi-class. This is similair (though I wouldn't say easier) than a magus/eldritch knight.

A caster bard is a novel thing that can be built. You don't even need a weapon (though you certainly can have one). Also they can auto heighten summons so you have 2-3 at your highest level to add a warm body onto the battlefield to soak damage from the party.

TWF rogue can be designed via fighter dedication to grab double slice and two weapon parry. I'm not sure it is easier though since it takes 3 feats, but you get dex to hit/damage without wasting any feats on those feat chains.

[Lanathar]

Red Griffyn wrote:

Lanathar wrote:

- mystic theurge looks possible from the get go

One difficulty with a spell caster multi-class spell caster is that spell casters get less feats. This is of particular annoyance at L12 when they get their expert spell casting class ability instead of a feat. That means getting any spells of 4th level or higher have to wait until L14. Similarly they don't get a L16 feat so you can't pick up the 'extra spell slot' multi-class feat until L18 (if you don't take master spell casting) or L20. The alternative is using a L10 or lower feat, which only nets you 1 extra L1 spell for a minimum of 4 levels until L14 when you can take the expert spell casting feat. This could be remedied by giving every class more feats (equal # of feats, more feats, or at more appropriate levels) or by removing some of the feat taxes for the multi-classes (i.e., to get higher level spells or get more slots). Multi-classing out of sorcerer is also harder because they have even fewer feats than other casters, who have less than martials.

This makes mystic theurges actually harder to achieve than before despite the what people keep stating because the only thing they cite is the lack of lost spell access/dead levels. However, in 1e an early entry mystic theurge via SLAs or equipment trick (sunrod) could have their primary prepared spell casting class receive spells at the same rate as a spontaneous class (i.e., 1 level delayed), while still having tons of spell slots in BOTH classes (at least 6 per level in main and 3-4 in secondary). Now it is 3-4 in the main class (no delay) and 1 in the secondary (maybe 2 in lower level slots at L20), which I don't think is more powerful. 1e low level spells could easily be used for buffs (invisibility, resist energy, heightened awareness, bulls strength, etc.) and it didn't matter that they were low level.

That being said multi-classing into wizard in 2e opens up almost all of the magical staves, which can really help a mystic theurge build (I have a...

I will admit to have been working at a high level and not knowing the detail of actually trying to make a theurge

That said I am pretty sure that some of the “early access via SLA” routes were errata’d out of 1E - if not all of them. I think this even invalidates one of the AP big bads unless I have misunderstood

[PossibleCabbage]

Lanathar wrote:

That said I am pretty sure that some of the “early access via SLA” routes were errata’d out of 1E - if not all of them. I think this even invalidates one of the AP big bads unless I have misunderstood.

Literally all of them were. SLAs can no longer be used to qualify for prestige classes for going on like 4-5 years now.

Plus, even if spellcasters get fewer class feats, you only need 5 feets to get the full progression of casting on your 2nd class; the only hiccup is that Expert Cleric Spellcasting and Expert Wizard Spellcasting are level 12 feats, and you don't have a level 12 feat so you have to wait until 14.

So a full Wizard/Cleric theurge will eat your 2nd, 4th, 8th, 14th, and 18th level feats. Leaving you a 1st (if human), 6th, 10th, and 20th level class feats for whatever you want (Plus all your skill, general, and ancestry feats.) It's pretty rough to do this with a sorcerer though.

[Matthew Downie]

Lanathar wrote:

- a pure caster cleric seems like the way to go now and I am in favour as I never was a massive fan of the legacy 3.5 (or perhaps earlier but 3rd was when I started) heavily armour priest with a mace

Clerics were mace-wielding armour-wearing priests in D&D 1e too. It's a pretty long-established tradition.