Special item materials are exorbitantly expensive, should have their prices lowered, and should have their prices decoupled from Bulk


Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells


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Special item materials are exorbitantly expensive, should have their prices lowered, and should have their prices decoupled from Bulk. Let us have a look at mundane items, before any weapon runes or armor runes.

• Expert weapon or light/medium armor: 350 sp
• Expert heavy armor: 500 sp, because heavy armor is bad
• Master weapon or armor: 3,600 sp
• Legendary weapon or armor: 65,000 sp

These are reasonable prices so far, right? But then we get to special materials. Their prices are based on item Bulk, which makes sense from a simulationist standpoint, but is a terrible idea from a game balance perspective, because it punishes anyone who dares to use heavy weapons or heavy armor. For reference, here are some weapons and armor by Bulk:

• Bulk L: Hatchet, light hammer, shortsword
• Bulk 1: Battleaxe, longsword, warhammer
• Bulk 2: Greataxe, greatsword, maul, guisarme, halberd, ranseur, chain shirt, scale mail, chain mail, breastplate
• Bulk 3: Splint mail, half plate
• Bulk 4: Full plate

An adamantine weapon costs the following, compared to 3,600 sp for plain master or 65,000 sp for plain legendary:
• Master adamantine Bulk L weapon: 6,000 sp
• Master adamantine Bulk 1 weapon: 7,000 sp
• Master adamantine Bulk 2 weapon: 14,000 sp
• Legendary adamantine Bulk L weapon: 130,000 sp
• Legendary adamantine Bulk 1 weapon: 150,000 sp
• Legendary adamantine Bulk 2 weapon: 300,000 sp
With these prices, adamantine must be fairly good, especially for a two-handed weapon, right? But... no, all it does is halve an attacked object's Hardness, unless the target object has Hardness greater to that of the adamantine weapon. We have no sundering rules at the moment, so all this does is make shield-users even easier to bully. That is such a marginal benefit for a massive price increase.

What of darkwood and mithral, for armor? Again, compare them to 3,600 sp for plain master or 65,000 sp for plain legendary:
• Master darkwood/mithral Bulk 2 armor: 12,000 sp
• Master darkwood/mithral Bulk 3 armor: 18,000 sp
• Master darkwood/mithral Bulk 4 armor: 24,000 sp
• Legendary darkwood/mithral Bulk 2 armor: 240,000 sp
• Legendary darkwood/mithral Bulk 3 armor: 360,000 sp
• Legendary darkwood/mithral Bulk 4 armor: 480,000 sp
These are some steep price tags! What does it actually do? It reduces check penalty by 1 (i.e. completely useless for master darkwood/mithral chain shirts and scale mail, and also useless for legendary darkwood/mithral chain mail and splint mail), and it reduces Bulk by 1. That is a very poor deal.

Why bother with these special materials? They should have their prices notched down considerably.

Grand Lodge

I agree, from just looking mind you, that the prices appear like they could use being toned down a notch. I will reserve final judgment until I see how treasure rewards work out during play.

As for decoupling cost from bulk for special materials, there I disagree. Bulk is there to indicate how much material you have used in the crafting process. It gives a more realistic sense of how the economy would likely work.

A Static cost for the material wouldn't make sense (ex: a blacksmith is unlikely to use the same surcharge on adamantine for a dagger that he does for a greatsword, it doesn't account for the amount of material used).

Any mechanic that is used to create items has to take into account the cost of materials due to how much is used. Unfortunately, Bulk is the current method of doing so, and it has its own problems (a light wooden shield likely uses more Darkwood than a staff made of same, but the shield is Bulk L and the Staff is Bulk 1). Short of going to a mass or weight-based system (unlikely at this point) this is what we have to work with.

Again, after reading the tables to make sure I was understanding your position, I do agree the costs need some adjustments unless treasure allotment is higher than I suspect in Playtest.


Yeah, after talking about mithril in the other thread, I took a look at the materials. They're pretty bad, especially for their huge costs. And it does add insult to injury for heavy armor users. Heavy armor is just plain bad all around, it needs some serious improvements for the final.

So yeah, the materials need dramatic cost reductions, or some more significant benefits for using them. Hardness and bulk really aren't all that great for the costs. Maybe additional reductions in Armor check Penalty, and/or increases in Max Dex for mithril. Or go back to treating armor as one category lighter, reducing speed penalties or whatnot. Adamantine armor could potentially go back to giving resistance to physical damage.

As for adamantine weapons, there is structure damage in the bestiary. You can still use an adamantine weapon as a door/wall-breaker (adamantine lockpick we call it). At least against wood and stone doors and wood-slat, lath and plaster and crumbling masonry walls. Iron doors are beyond even a legendary adamantine weapon's hardness (18 vs 17). And non-crumbling masonry is apparently a downtime thing requiring proper equipment. There are also a seven monsters that are resistant to damage other than adamantine (at levels 4th, 8th, 10th, 11th, 13th, 18th, 22nd) so there is still that. But I agree, it's a bit underwhelming for the price.


More on issues with special materials. The hardness of many of them is below the standard materials. Which mostly only really matters for shields. Silver is very weak, but that's understandable, it's not good for structural use. Expert cold iron has the same hardness as standard steel, so cold iron is weaker than standard steel of equal quality. This might be intended, but Darkwood is the same way with standard wood. I was under the impression that darkwood was suposed to be stronger, as it is it's lighter but weaker. So a Darkwood shield is rather terrible. Mithral is even worse. It's got the same hardness of standard quality steel, at master quality, which makes it weaker than wood for thin items and only slightly stronger than wood for non-thin ones. Again, I thought mithral was suposed to be both light and very strong, not something that makes an inferior shield than standard wood.

Coupled with the fact that that the benefits in general for many of them are pretty lackluster and often overshadowed by the quality benefits, materials really should be revisited and improved. There is no reason for a mithral chain shirt now other than lower bulk, while in PF1 they were great armor. Adamantine armor does nothing other than have higher hardness which doesn't matter without sunder rules. It's good for shields though. Silver and cold iron at least still have their effects of damaging certain creatures. And orichalcum is great as is.

I'd propose bumping the hardness of darkwood and mithral to be at least equal to wood and steel of equal quality, although I'd prefer slightly better so there is a reason to get them in a shield. Also mithral and adamantine armor should probably get some additional benefits in line with what they had in PF1. Perhaps mithral armor can reduce speed penalty by 5 feet and/or increase the dex modifier cap. And adamantine armor giving resistance to physical damage would give some reason for using it.

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