Magic Item crafting woes

[Spaceman]

My characters have the Craft Wondrous Item feat and are desperate for more things to make. Our main crafter is very intent on going to 3.5 sources, and finding new toys. I'm interested in creating a game that's fun for everyone, but I don't want to overpower the PCs, they are already tearing through all my encounters.

How do you deal with the craft wondrous item feat? It seems that if one gets their spellcraft up high enough, they can craft any item, regardless of if they have the spell or meet the caster level requirement. I'm just about ready to say no custom magic items at all.

[pipedreamsam]

Spaceman wrote:

no custom magic items at all.

This.

[Pinky's Brain]

I'd allow the MiC with a slightly houseruled belt of battle (standard action attacks and full attacks, instead of standard actions and full round actions) and no circlet of rapid casting (or maybe make it cleric only, they can use some help). It's balanced for the most part and PF is really really short affordable magic items.

The only problem with PF is that it went a bit overboard with full attack damage ... which would make the games a bit more lethal with belts of battle ... but archers already pump out ungodly amounts of damage and mobile TWF fighters and barbarians can move and (almost) full attack at mid level any way. Belts of Battle are pretty much a necessity in mid level games with archers and those types of characters, so other melee builds can still do something useful.

[mdt]

Agreed,
98% of MiC was actually weaker magic items than core magic items. I allow them in my PF game. It's one of the few really balanced books WoTC put out toward the last half of 3.5.

[Gnomezrule]

Our group shares DM responsibility one in particular gave out a lot of items, he just loved it. It got to the point of relative ridculousness. When one of the other DM's took over he brought it up as a concern I mentioned to him that items are not indestructable and maybe when there is a fireball or other such catastrophe that the rules call for saves for items (when the PC's fail theirs) We lost more cool stuff that way. It also made for a much more real fear of loss amongst the players.

We never had anyone make magic items though. I would suggest, forcing the crafter to quest for materials to make a new item. Also because the items are "new" or exceedingly rare up the DC or make it more likely that item is cursed if they fail the check. You can also reinstate the 3e XP cost.

[Maxximilius]

-> No custom magic items, and no going over Wealth By Level by crafting.

[Majuba]

My advice would be to ban the Magic Item Compendium prices. The majority of that book is severely underpriced.

Craft DCs when missing spells (caster level requirements are very rare, see ioun stone for an example) can actually get fairly difficult, especially when the group seeks to also increase the speed (another +5) of the crafting. Be sure to calculate it, and don't allow taking 10.

As for custom item crafting, if you're comfortable with the rules, and willing to say "hmm, this needs an ad hoc x2 (or x10) modifier", it's usually not that much trouble. Most custom craft horror stories involve incorrect pricing, or attempts to circumvent the *specific* pricing guidelines (such as bonus squared * 1000 for armor bonuses).

[Khrysaor]

Force any magic item creation to be done at full market value instead of half value. This allows them to make what they want in the form of unique items and limits the resources they can have to do so with. There shouldn't be a change in the WBL if everyone gets their share of the treasure or close to it. You still get to buy items at full cost and if an item is unavailable you can make it at full cost so crafters don't save money over the guys buying the items.

For custom items, just make sure there's nothing similar that is more expensive. If this is the case, adjust the prices for balance. This is also true of any items from 3rd party or previous editions like 3.5.

[Sardonic Soul]

Can you really ignore caster level requirements with a spell craft check? I thought that was set in stone. The easy way to fix things is to give very little gold for treasure. Only give items up to their wealth by level. Its hard to craft without gold. I also don't believe anything good can come from the magic item compendium. Alot of that stuff is way under priced for what they do. I really hate what that book did to my 3.5 game. Way,way to many cheap 3 uses per day items which let the pc's go nova and added to the 5 minute work day.

[ZomB]

If WBL is controlled and wealth found is mostly in magic items not cash then it is self balancing. Sell an item for half price, craft an item for half price. WBL is maintained as long as the crafted item is properly costed.

There was a good suggestion in another thread a few days ago to limit certain bonuses allowed by caster level i.e. each +1 bonus has a hard caster requisite of 3 caster levels. So you need to be level 15 to craft a +5 sword or level 18 to craft a +6 headband.

If you don't think you can price the items fairly or you think they will try and wriggle around fair costs then just ban crafting feats.

[3.5 Loyalist]

Spaceman wrote:

My characters have the Craft Wondrous Item feat and are desperate for more things to make. Our main crafter is very intent on going to 3.5 sources, and finding new toys. I'm interested in creating a game that's fun for everyone, but I don't want to overpower the PCs, they are already tearing through all my encounters.

How do you deal with the craft wondrous item feat? It seems that if one gets their spellcraft up high enough, they can craft any item, regardless of if they have the spell or meet the caster level requirement. I'm just about ready to say no custom magic items at all.

The crafting chronicles have begun. They will never be happy with the loot they find (unless they are artifacts), they won't use the items or respect what they find. They will make their own, and spend time customising themselves till they are as perfect as their coin will make them. Urrgh.

[CalebTGordan]

Where are the PCs getting the gold to craft their gear? If they are running out of stuff to craft, that means they must have robbed a king's treasury.

Here is my advice. First, read and reread the crafting section of the Core Rulebook. Learn it better then your players. Next, start paying attention to the time it takes to craft and to the DCs they need to make. You want them to fail some of the DCs? Start putting some heat on them to rush the crafting. Limit their time to craft.

Lastly, if they try to sell their stuff, make sure they don't make a profit. Remember that they still only get 50% of the market price for stuff they crafted.

If things are still getting out of hand, start limiting the amount of treasure you are giving them.

[3.5 Loyalist]

If you want to slow down crafting, you can opt to use the 3.5 rules, say it has an xp requirement, can't be done one the road, must be done in a proper enchanting laboratory. Discourage through inconvenience. Crafters care a lot about level and power so they hate the 3.5 xp costs.

[Khrysaor]

ZomB wrote:

If WBL is controlled and wealth found is mostly in magic items not cash then it is self balancing. Sell an item for half price, craft an item for half price. WBL is maintained as long as the crafted item is properly costed.

There was a good suggestion in another thread a few days ago to limit certain bonuses allowed by caster level i.e. each +1 bonus has a hard caster requisite of 3 caster levels. So you need to be level 15 to craft a +5 sword or level 18 to craft a +6 headband.

If you don't think you can price the items fairly or you think they will try and wriggle around fair costs then just ban crafting feats.

This isn't a suggestion, it's already a rule that is in the crafting section.

The problem with games self balancing is that GM's have to give the appropriate items to keep everyone else happy while the crafter crafts. If everyone has +3 weapons and you drop three +1 swords in a party of 4, players will usually sell all the items and pool the gold to split 4 ways unless someone has already been receiving more than others. This is where the crafter excels.

[Jeraa]

Quote:

This isn't a suggestion, it's already a rule that is in the crafting section.

Only for armor and weapons, and a few other items (amulet of natural armor, cloak of resistance, probably a few more). At least one item (bracers of armor) only require a caster level equal to 2x the bonus. There are no guidelines for other bonuses. The stat boosting items have no caster level requirement. By the book, caster levels is not a requirement for most wondrous items.

[Khrysaor]

Your best friend on limiting them is time. In the rules its deemed that a character can find 4 hours a day to craft while adventuring. Of these 4 hours only 2 hours count towards the cost for item completion. It requires 4 days while adventuring to get 1 8 hour work day. This can be accelerated with a +5 DC so it only takes 2 days to get 8 hours of work. This is also all based on there being a somewhat suitable condition for crafting. Usually it is done during lunch breaks from marching and dinner breaks. The crafter may have a ring of sustenance to get some extra time in the mornings when he doesn't have to sleep as long. Throw in the occasional encounter in the night that interrupts the crafter. This completely ruins a day of work and provides a 0 cost towards item completion. You can make the conditions such that crafting isn't possible. Violent storms plague an area during an adventure. Anything really that removes the focus of the party. Even small disturbances can interrupt the process.

Also as others have said, make sure you are limiting the wealth they have to invest in crafting. Give them more encounters where wealth isn't gained like oozes or animal fights. And always be certain that they are selling items at 1/2 the market cost. This means a 0% profit on items crafted from the gold they get selling their own gear. Try to limit the amount of gear that won't be used by anyone and gets sold and the gold split. This adds to the crafter/non-crafter divide. Give them more consumables. Might not be what they want, but players like wands, potions, and low end wondrous items that fall in the consumable list. They provide utility without overly breaking balance.

[braingamer47]

There is something satisfactory about using items you yourself created. There is also something quite demoralising about seeing all of your creations be destroyed by a fireball. Why bother if all your stuff is just going to get blown up because of one bad roll? If a character is putting in a lot of time and effort only to get nowhere, well, you can see the issue.

I hate to say it, but 3.5, pathfinder etc. are built with a strong leaning toward power gaming and character optimisation. If you want to veer away from that you have two good options. The first, change to a system that doesn't make power gaming a standard option. The second, and I consider it the better, is to talk to your players and make sure they and the campaign both have the goals of character concept, campaign goals etc. as more important than doing a few extra points of damage. Either that, or just embrace D&D and Pathfinder for what they are good at, power gaming and killing stuff. Learn the rules, make sure items are balanced, and award proper treasure amounts to keep the money in line.

If you make special rules to slow, punish, or severely limit a player for making smart, efficient, effective choices (in pathfinder/3.5 it sounds like the choices have been legal) it's going to discourage that creativity too. I find a game where players who constantly make dumb choices (but stay in line with the "power level") and players who make good choices (but become "too" strong) but are penalised to "stay in line," to be very unfair feeling games.

To be realistic, no two characters are going to be the same or balanced, unless they have the same stats and the same player controlling them (assuming the dice hate them equally). The illusion that a balance can be maintained is just that, an illusion. There are no balanced systems, only smart and fair GMs, with players willing to work with him/her, that will get close.