I've been umm-ing and err-ing on making this post for a while, but it's increasingly hard to ignore the fact that there's a few specific elements about PACG that I don't understand (or that I'm uncertain that I understand, and it bothers me). Fortunately, I can narrow down exact examples.
This is the first of two posts, each covering specific questions I had when interpreting Class Deck characters.
The fundamental question being asked here are as follows:
- What defines a power on a card, in the most precise wording possible?
First, I'll quote the relevant rulebook texts for the appropriate references. Added in spoiler text.
Playing a card means using a power on that card by performing an action with that card that is specified by the card itself (see Boons, page 23). Choosing to activate a power on a displayed card also counts as playing it. If a power says using it counts as playing a boon, it counts as playing a card.
If you play a card in such a way that it leaves your hand, that action can trigger only 1 power.
If a paragraph on a boon doesn’t require you to perform an action with that boon to cause an effect, that paragraph is not a power; do what it says at the appropriate time. For example, if a paragraph says “After you play this card, if you have the Divine skill, recharge it instead of discarding it,” and you have the Divine skill, you must recharge the card after you play it. If a card says “If proficient with light armors, you may recharge this card when you reset your hand,” and you are proficient with light armors, then when you reset your hand, you may recharge that card. When you are required to do something with the card as part of the effect (rather than to cause an effect), that does not count as playing it. So in either of the previous examples, recharging the card does not count as playing it.
Alright, so moving on to specific questions/examples.
What is a Power?
Zelhara has the power "[..,], when a power happens if a boon has the Corrupted trait, you may ignore that power.".
- Powers only include when you do something with a card (recharge, display, etc) in order to make an effect occur. The rulebook (of which I only summarized some parts above) is clear that additional consequences of playing a card (like the recharge check of a spell) is NOT a power if it's covered in a separate paragraph, and playing a card can only trigger one power at a time (again clarified in the rulebook).
- But if that's the case, then doesn't that mean this power doesn't apply to a huge number of the boons in HV2? Honestly, I feel a bit confused about what is and isn't a power, but I think if a card says "Discard this to do this; if this has the Corrupted trait, bury it instead" then I think the "bury it instead" is a power, because it's in the same paragraph. But if the card has a separate paragraph that says "After playing this card, if this card has the corrupted trait, bury it" it's NOT a power and Zelhara won't prevent that.
- But maybe even the first assumption I made ("If it's in the same paragraph, it's a power") is not quite accurate, because of the other rulebook portion saying "If you play a card in such a way that it leaves your hand, that action can trigger only 1 power". That means that Zelhara saying that she can ignore a power, that means she'd have to ignore the entire paragraph, therefore undoing the entire use. But if that's the case, then Zelhara has a dead power (actually, another dead power, as the rulebook also says that she can't play a weapon then use her power to change the skill she's using with it).
- Basically, what corrupted downsides can she ignore or not ignore? Can she prevent the "added cost" of playing Traitor's Blade (it's own paragraph of text, and on a card that appears to be themed for her due to being a knife)? Can she undo 'replacement' downsides like on the Sacrificial Dagger? Ghoul Hide? Discord Bottle? A huge portion of the Corrupted downsides are listed in their own paragraph and occur when a card is played... which is the same principle of the Recharge check on spells, and explicitly stated in the rulebook as "Not being a power".
- But there's another element. What about other situation about 'powers' that occur due to "a boon having the corrupted trait", but the power isn't on the boon itself?
- What about WotR Seelah's "When you acquire a boon that has the Corrupted trait, bury it" power? That totally seems to fit the bill of "A power that happens if a boon has the Corrupted Trait", can Zelhara prevent THAT?
I'm pretty certain that a lot of my conclusions are not in lines with Rules as Intended. So is this a case that the power's intent does not line up with the rules, or am I just horribly misunderstanding fundamental rules about what defines a "power"? If it's the latter, I'd greatly appreciate being corrected with clarifications.
Linxia (plus role cards) has a power that says "When you play a boon that has the Corrupted or Shield (or Heavy Armor) for its power, you may...".
- So I'm confident that "While you reset your hand, you may recharge this card when you reset your hand." is not a power. I'm not 100% confident on WHY, but presumably because you're not "Do X to do Y". You're not recharging it to do anything, simply recharging it. But I'm a bit more vague on other powers; so lets take Tower Shield as an example.
- When you display Tower Shield, are you using a power? It has an effect that's "While displayed", but that effect doesn't immediately occur (unless you're taking damage at the start of your turn, I guess). So it's not "Display to do X", it's just "Display", much like recharging armor at the end of your turn.
- The rulebook says that CHOOSING to use a power on a displayed card counts as playing it. When it says "At the end of any turn, you may recharge this card.", is that a power? Or does it again fall in line with the above "You're not doing Y as a result". What about "If you do not, succeed at a Strength of Melee 6 check or discard this card." Is any part of this last paragraph a power? Why or why not?
- What about the Ultimate Combat "Display" armors? Can I display Dwarven Plate? Does that count as playing it? What about if you Display it in response to taking combat damage? I know that using its powers after its displayed certainly count, of course.
I've got a couple more questions, but I'll leave them for a separate post, because they're not essentially the same (though they may be related) to the nature of "What is a Power".
Once again, I'd be greatly appreciative of anyone who can provide clarifications; whether I'm misreading or misunderstanding, or whether there's an issue with the powers themselves.
These are good questions.
My immediate reaction in regard to Zelhara is that I think her quoted power is misworded. I think the intention is to grant Zelhara the ability to ignore unwanted effects, not powers.
The Linxia questions are more subtle. I would have thought that displaying a Tower Shield is playing that card. (Its first line reads "At the start of any turn, display this card.") But, nearly always you won't be gaining an immediate benefit from the card. Does manipulating a card based on text written on the card count as playing the card if doing so has no immediate effect?
Does manipulating a card based on text written on the card count as playing the card if doing so has no immediate effect?
Exactly. And if it does count, then why is "Display it for Displaying its sake" count as a power, but "Recharge it for recharging its sake (during reset your hand for armors)" doesn't count?
If that counts too (which I'm quite confident it doesn't), then Linxia... well that's pretty phenomenal.
One difference is that every card which grants the ability to display itself also grants a benefit for use at a later time (as far as I can recall), be it an optional or a mandatory benefit. OTOH, recharging a card just gives you health (and the possibility of drawing the card again). I think that difference is substantial enough to explain a ruling that displaying (in this context) is playing while recharging (in this context) is not.
I think the intent of Zelhara is that it only applies to text in "Powers" sections of cards (boons, banes, characters, other support cards which feature a "Powers" block). It won't apply to things that happen with Corrupted cards due to locations, scenarios, adventures, or adventure paths. If you look at it that way, the wording makes more sense.
I would rule that Zelhara's power applies to all of the downsides that happen when you play Corrupted cards.
Zelhara cannot ignore Seelah's power, because Zelhara's power says "you may ignore that power" and when you're ignoring something, it has no effect for you. It still has full effect for other people who aren't ignoring it (such as Seelah), so Seelah still needs to bury the card.
The recharge at end of turn is explicitly called out as not a power on page 23. Given that rule, I would say displaying Tower Shield similarly is not using a power since it does not have an effect. Contrast that with Daji from the Witch Class Deck (since I had him handy for a PbP): "Display this card. While displayed, if you have the Witch trait, gain the skills Arcane: Intelligence +2 and Craft: Intelligence +2". Here, displaying clearly has an effect in and of itself, so that is a power.
If a paragraph on a boon doesn’t require you to perform an action
with that boon to cause an effect, that paragraph is not a power;
do what it says at the appropriate time. For example, if a paragraph
says “After you play this card, if you have the Divine skill, recharge
it instead of discarding it,” and you have the Divine skill, you must
recharge the card after you play it. If a card says “If proficient with
light armors, you may recharge this card when you reset your hand,”
and you are proficient with light armors, then when you reset your
hand, you may recharge that card. When you are required to do
something with the card as part of the effect (rather than to cause an
effect), that does not count as playing it. So in either of the previous
examples, recharging the card does not count as playing it.
I think the intent of Zelhara is that it only applies to text in "Powers" sections of cards (boons, banes, characters, other support cards which feature a "Powers" block). It won't apply to things that happen with Corrupted cards due to locations, scenarios, adventures, or adventure paths. If you look at it that way, the wording makes more sense.
That's how I interpreted the intent, though as it remains it's suggested by the rulebook that a lot of corrupted penalty texts are not "powers" (again, if it's in its own paragraph and is not "X this card to do Y", it's called out on page 23 as not a power).
Good catch on the "You", though. Skimmed over that. No Seelah protection.
The recharge at end of turn is explicitly called out as not a power on page 23. Given that rule, I would say displaying Tower Shield similarly is not using a power since it does not have an effect. Contrast that with Daji from the Witch Class Deck (since I had him handy for a PbP): "Display this card. While displayed, if you have the Witch trait, gain the skills Arcane: Intelligence +2 and Craft: Intelligence +2". Here, displaying clearly has an effect in and of itself, so that is a power.
I'm not certain I understand the difference. Tower shield is "Display this card. While displayed (take less damage)", whilst Daji is "Display this card. While displayed (gain skills)". Gaining skills is only useful when they're referenced; same as damage reduction. I don't understand the distinction here; could you clarify why these are fundamentally different?
Also, if displaying Daji is a power... does it remain a power if you don't have the Witch trait, and so that paragraph doesn't do anything?
I was going purely off the quoted text above, didn't check the card; I assumed that you had to play it again while displayed in order to reduce damage (rather than damage reduction being automatic while displayed). If the damage reduction is automatic, it would be a power because displaying it has an effect. If you have to actively play the "While displayed" power to reduce damage, then I'd still say the initial display is not a power. Basically, are there any "while displayed" things that happen without you needing to play those things? If yes, displaying is a power. If no, it's not a power. At least, that's how I interpret that rule.
In that interpretation, displaying Daji is still a power even if the character isn't a Witch, because that part I quoted doesn't require you to use it for it to take effect (even though it doesn't affect you).
At the start of any turn, display this card. While displayed, all damage dealt to you is reduced by 2, and the difficulty of your checks to defeat is increased by 1d8, or by 1d4 if you are proficient with heavy armors.
I'd just like to point out that we evidently should be referring to it as "Zelhara's effect" not "Zelhara's power".
I'd just like to point out that we evidently should be referring to it as "Zelhara's effect" not "Zelhara's power".
I swear this was my thought process.
It's written in something literally called the "Powers" section of her character card! You use Power Feats, even!
->
Wait, that section is on every bane and boon, and various support cards.
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Wait, but the rulebook clarifies that there is text in the Powers section of cards that aren't Powers (Recharge checks, separate paragraphs detailing additional effects of playing a card, etc).
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Damnit. I now officially hate the term 'Power'. I see where you're going with that statement.
See this post which raised the power/effect issue as well.
As someone playing Linxia in OP right now (w/ Ultimate Combat), this has been an interesting read.
I would have guessed that a power is pretty much anything that (a) appears in a white text box and (b) involves displaying, revealing, discarding, etc. So I would have put recharging an armor at end of turn in the "power" category, but clearly I would have been wrong.
Anyway, as mentioned, Ultimate Combat has cool stuff like displayable armors such as Four-Mirror Armor. Linxia likes to add the Corrupted trait to cards to help her heal, so is it legal to add the Corrupted trait to a displayed FM Armor - just before it is buried to prevent damage - to heal? (It also sounds like adding the Corrupted trait to the FM armor while it is *initially* being displayed doesn't do anything, as the armor technically isn't being played for a power at that point.)
BTW, cards that add/subtract the Corrupted trait, such as Corruptive Half-Plate, say to add/subtract the trait "to a card" - not add/subtract the trait to a card in your hand.
P.S. I just now realized that the "add/subtract the Corruptive trait" effects can be played on anyone's cards, not only on Linxia's cards. Doesn't matter in my case, but it could matter in parties with multiple characters with Corrupted cards - or if I give a Corrupted card to another player, for some reason.
BTW, cards that add/subtract the Corrupted trait, such as Corruptive Half-Plate, say to add/subtract the trait "to a card" - not add/subtract the trait to a card in your hand.P.S. I just now realized that the "add/subtract the Corruptive trait" effects can be played on anyone's cards, not only on Linxia's cards. Doesn't matter in my case, but it could matter in parties with multiple characters with Corrupted cards - or if I give a Corrupted card to another player, for some reason.
Some good points here, but I do believe adding/subtracting a trait from a card would only apply to cards in your immediate hand.
Basically, if cards are referenced without additional context, the assumption is that they refer to cards in your hand. Examples include Blessing of Dispater (if corrupted, shuffle a boon into your location deck - the boon has to come from your hand even though it doesn't say). Or if something says "discard a card" (the card has to be discarded from your hand. It doesn't explicitly say "You discard a card" or "discard a card from your hand", but that's what it infers - you can't discard a Displayed card).
Much like "Draw" is always assumed to be from your character deck, unless additional context is given, like "draw the top card of the blessings deck". There's a certain presumption.
If the corruptive cards said "add or ignore the corrupted trait on any card", that might be different, but they generally say "a" card, like on Channel Corruption.
If the corruptive cards said "add or ignore the corrupted trait on any card", that might be different, but they generally say "a" card, like on Channel Corruption.
That all sounds reasonable. Turns out my memory isn't reliable anyway, and I misquoted the cards. The cards say to "ignore" the Corrupted trait, and it doesn't help someone else if I'm ignoring the trait on their card. *They* need to ignore the trait to get a benefit, not me. :)
I guess I'm still not 100% sure whether corruptive cards can add a trait to a displayed card (e.g., whether the Corrupted trait can be added to a displayed armor), but perhaps not. Could be that displayed cards are generally untouchable.
The only way I could imagine changing a displayed card would be if "a card" meant choose a card by name. Like the way the redemption card works, you tick off a name and it affects everything with that name
But I agree in reality with the interpretation that "a card" means a card in your hand unless otherwise specified. There's a rule quote to that effect and I can't see any good reason not to apply it here.