Is Swarm Monger Eligible for a Improved Familiar?

[KingNasher]

As the title suggests, I'm trying to determine if Swarm Monger's are eligible for an improved familiar. For example, at level 5, I would want to look into changing to a Stirge familiar, which has its own swarm associated with it.

Is this feasible? The swarm monger archetype says the druid must choose from a list of fecund familiars, but doesn't really specify if you can improve it later. Any help is appreciated.

[LordKailas]

I don't see any reason for it not to work. You would meet the alignment, level and class feature requirements.

I don't know if the swarm would retain the blood drain ability or not. I can easily see it either way. Some of the creatures on the Fecund Familiar list have poison and it's not clear to me if their swarm forms would retain the poison attack or not. If they do then the strige would keep it's blood drain as well.

[David knott 242]

Since the choice of familiar is limited, presumably the Improved Familiar choices are limited too. It is probably okay to add the celestial or fiendish template to the familiar granted by this archetype, but a complete replacement of the familiar with some other creature is probably out of the question.

[Dave Justus]

"The swarm monger must select her familiar from the following options: cat, house centipede, rat, raven, or scarlet spider. "

Stirge isn't on that list, so it is not a valid choice. If you don't have something in the class that says you can change it, you can't.

[LordKailas]

I suppose it depends on how you interpret the FAQ on the subject.

So far as I can, tell the thought is that so long as you can make a choice regarding what kind of animal you can have as a familiar and you still get all the "normal" familiar abilities then improved familiar is a valid choice.

swarm monger can pick from multiple options (not just cats only). Also, the familiar they get receives all of the normal familiar abilities.

Swarm Monger wrote:

A swarm monger bonds with an urban familiar, treating her druid level as her wizard level for the purposes of determining her familiar’s abilities.

Stirge is on the list for improved familiar for Neutral alignment characters. Since druids are required to be Neutral that shouldn't be an issue.

Additionally, both witches and Spirit Shamans are allowed to pick alternative familiars using the Improved familiar feat, even though the familiars that they get have abilities above and beyond what a normal familiar gets. So having a familiar that gets more than just the standard abilities doesn't prevent you from taking the feat.

[merpius]

It seems the most relevant part of the FAQ is this;

Quote:

In other cases, treat Improved Familiar as if it was an archetype to see if it stacks with other familiar options: since the two things it alters from a regular familiar are that it removes the ability to speak with animals of its kind and it prevents changing the creature type for non-animals, you couldn’t make a familiar that changes the creature type of non-animals or alters or removes speak with animals of its kind an Improved Familiar.

With that guidance, it seems that as long as the familiar gets the un-altered speak with animals of its kind ability and follows the ordinary rules about a familiar being an animal that is altered to act as a magic beast, then you can use Improved Familiar.

I'll take it even a step further; given that the whole purpose of Improved Familiar is to expand the list of choices available to you, the choices available by your normal class feature do not matter very much WRT whether you can take Improved Familiar; after all, wizards are limited to a select list of normal animals that they can choose, if they take Improved Familiar, they can select a Stirge, which is not on that list.

I'd say, RAW, this archetype can take Improved Familiar, and even select a stirge.

Now, as for what the Swarm Monger's swarm of stirges does; it does what the archtype says it does, nothing more/less; it would not get the abilities/stat block of a swarm of stirges, it would only get what is detailed in the archetype's class ability. Part of this is that they gain the swarm subtype and a swarm attack. Here's the description of swarm attack;

Quote:

Swarm Attack: creatures with the swarm subtype don’t make standard melee attacks. Instead, they deal automatic damage to any creature whose space they occupy at the end of their move, with no attack roll needed. Swarm attacks are not subject to a miss chance for concealment or cover. A swarm’s stat block has “swarm” in the Melee entries, with no attack bonus given.

Given that and the fact that the poison (from the centipede and spider options for the archetype) and the blood drain (from the stirge being proposed) are tied to a particular natural attack (bite for the two vermin, attach for the stirge, which requires a touch attack) then they would not get those in swarm form. In fact, the stirge also has a "diseased" ability that continues it's chain of dependency; it only takes effect if the blood drain happens.

[Azothath]

alright - I'm gonna poke this hornet's nest wasp swarm.

I think it's a matter of class inheritance. The restrictions on the base class work if they are inherited by Improved Familiar feat. This is a close to RAW reading and works in PFS. In a home game the GM has more leeway.

The term "urban familiar" doesn't have a defined meaning in the game unless the list in the class defines it, urban familiar=(cat, house centipede, rat, raven, or scarlet spider). "Urban terrain" has meaning and is defined elsewhere. Urban has meaning in context, so mincing the text into single keywords loses that context and association with familiar and it becomes fluff/flavor text.

Is it possible to invalidate a specific class restriction by a earlier generic feat? If it was just a weapon proficiency, sure. This restriction has meaning as it ties directly into (centipede, rat, raven, spider) swarm types. Sadly with house cat there is no official cat swarm entry. On the flip side Swarm Monger didn't list fish, frog, poisonous frog, monkey, snake, poisonous snake, etc.

Importantly Wizard class doesn't restrict familiars except by size and type, and with recent updates there are plant and vermin options. But we are coming at Improved Familiar with a restricted list from a Druid Archetype.

Improved Familiar wrote:

Improved familiars otherwise use the rules for regular familiars, with two exceptions: if the creature's type is something other than animal, its type does not change; and improved familiars do not gain the ability to speak with other creatures of their kind (although many of them already have the ability to communicate).

More authoritative is the Core Rulebook FAQ. The text opens the doors wide and then makes 2 exceptions and offers guidance in a third statement.

Improved Familiar FAQ wrote:

In other cases, treat Improved Familiar as if it was an archetype to see if it stacks with other familiar options: since the two things it alters from a regular familiar are that it removes the ability to speak with animals of its kind and it prevents changing the creature type for non-animals, you couldn’t make a familiar that changes the creature type of non-animals or alters or removes speak with animals of its kind an Improved Familiar.

I think we are in the "other case" with Swarm Monger.

Improved Familiar becomes an archetype that stacks with the restricted list(other familiar options) if the celestial/entropic/fiendish/resolute template options are used. This allows (both) a)removal of speaking with creatures of its own kind -or- b) changing it's type to non-animal (aka magical beast).
It is important to point out that the alignment planes template comes from hawk, viper, monkey, owl entries in the Improved Familiar listing and the addendum "Or other celestial, entropic, fiendish, or resolute animal from the standard familiar list".

As we are in a corner case, it will go various ways with various GMs.
For me, within PFS, the restricted list with the celestial/entropic/fiendish/resolute template is the legal option.
In a home game I think a few more swarmish options should be made available by the GM, the magical beast should be able to speak to it's mundane animal cousins.
A GM could also go whole hog and allow the complete improved familiar listing. It will be interesting to see a calligraphy wyrm swarm or faerie dragon swarm. This is the most undefined option.