Does counterspelling break invisibility?

[Xexyz]

Situation: NPC has regular invisibility, readies an action to counterspell. PC attempts to cast invisibility purge, and the NPC successfully counters the PC's spell. Does the NPC lose their invisibility?

[ckdragons]

Assuming the NPC is using dispel magic to counterspell, I would rule as a GM that YES the NPC would lose his invisibility because the dispel magic is an offensive attack against the PC.

[Xexyz]

ckdragons wrote:

Assuming the NPC is using dispel magic to counterspell, I would rule as a GM that YES the NPC would lose his invisibility because the dispel magic is an offensive attack against the PC.

Why would using dispel magic be different than if the NPC in question had invisibility purge memorized and used that instead?

[ckdragons]

Xexyz wrote:

ckdragons wrote:

Assuming the NPC is using dispel magic to counterspell, I would rule as a GM that YES the NPC would lose his invisibility because the dispel magic is an offensive attack against the PC.

Why would using dispel magic be different than if the NPC in question had invisibility purge memorized and used that instead?

Very true, a bit of oversight on my part. :)

Either way, I would still rule the same that the counterspell action would break the invisibility. My reasoning is how I understand the sentence "For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe." within the description of invisibility. The counterspell action is a direct action (or attack) against a foe.

[merpius]

I would think counterspelling is acting against the magic (which is is an effect on the target, not the caster), but I suspect the RAW is silent on this. Even so, though, invisibility purge has a target of "you," (it then has an area of effect that radiates from "you"); since a counterspell is targetting either a) the caster, b) the target of the spell, or c) the area of effect of the spell, and all of those include the caster in this case, the counterspell would include a foe (or the area of a foe), so it would coutn as an attack.

The next question, though, is; I believe there are some ways to counter spells using supernatural effects. A simple example (though not applicable in this case) would be countersong, though I'm sure there are more. Do these ALSO break invisibility.

Honestly, looking at the intent, though (rather than RAW here), I think they meant for invis to break only in the case where harm is caused, as opposed to defensive actions. So, counterspell, being inherently defensive (you're only cancelling something, not hurting anyone in any way), RAI, probably should not cancel invisibility. If you cast Invisibility purge yourself (besides the obvious purging your own invisibility anyway), or cast dispel magic yourself, then those are offensive actions; you're trying to affect someone else directly. But that is all RAI; RAW implies it in the fluff, but sets forth specific determinants.

[Owen K. C. Stephens]

invisibility wrote:

For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe.

conterspell wrote:

To use a counterspell, you must select an opponent as the target of the counterspell.

As my unofficial, personal read of the rules, it sure looks like a counterspell is a spell that targets a foe, and thus breaks invisibility.

[blahpers]

Yyyyyeah, that looks pretty damning to the caster. Invisibility be gone.

[Ryze Kuja]

When dispel magic is used offensively, such as to dispel an enemy or to counterspell a spell an enemy is casting, it would cause your invisibility to be removed. But if you use dispel magic defensively, such as to remove an effect from an ally, it would not remove your invisibility.

Invisibility wrote:

The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character’s perceptions. Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear.