Quickdraw, Natural Attacks, and Throwing Weapons

[Revengeance]

I was wondering about the interaction between natural weapons with quickdraw and throwing weapons. Here's the situation:

Bob has the quickdraw feat, 6/1 BAB, 2 claw attacks and is wearing a blinkback belt carrying 2 throwing weapons. How many (and what kinds) of attacks can he perform?

A - 3 throws, 2 secondary natural attacks
B - 3 throws OR 2 primary natural attacks
C - 3 throws, 2 primary natural attacks

From RAW:

"Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type."

What's throwing me off is the "often" and "clutched". Here's what happens if Situation A is the case:

At the start of the round, Bob isn't holding anything. He draws a dagger in each hand (as a free action) and throws them, then draws another and throws it as well. He now has nothing in his hands, suggesting they're available for natural attacks - which he makes as secondary attacks, since he used manufactured weapons, too.

Is the above correct? Does Bob not get both the throws and his natural attacks (situation B)? What if he uses natural attacks and then draws (situation C) - do the natural attacks count as primary attacks (since he hasn't yet drawn any weapons)?

I'm leaning toward A, since the ordering of attacks shouldn't matter and the round begins and ends with Bob holding nothing. But I could also see B being the case.

[CountofUndolpho]

B by my understanding.
If you are doing both armed and natural, then the natural are secondary and as such resolved after the Primary attacks. If you are using the 'claw' limbs to throw you can't then use them to claw. Starting or finishing with empty hands doesn't matter it's what you do with those hands within the round that counts. If it was a bite you'd be cool.

[CountofUndolpho]

From the PRD a slightly different RAW

CRB wrote:

You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword.

[Claxon]

If you use your hands for manufactured attacks, they cannot also be used in the same round to make natural attacks. This applies to making manufactured attacks with any limb, preventing you from making natural attacks with the same limb for the entire round. Whether they're currently empty or not doesn't actually matter. The rules as written are a bit misleading.

[thaX]

Since you are using your hands to throw weapons, it would be the OR proposition. If you had a bite, as mentioned above, it would be a secondary attack at a -5, though there is a feat that lessens that penalty.

I assume your throwing the daggers from a distance then 5 foot stepping into melee range, otherwise a ranged attack will provoke an AoO.

[LordKailas]

To start with I'm not sure how you're getting 3 throws. So far as I can tell you would only get 2 throws. As for the interaction. I can see it as either of the following.

D - 2 throws, 2 secondary natural attacks
E - 2 throws, 1 secondary natural attack

I don't think quick drawing a dagger and throwing it counts as "wielding" since it's no longer in your hand when you go to make the claw attack. My logic is, as a cleric you could be holding a melee weapon and a shield, drop the weapon and then cast a spell. Casting a spell requires a free hand and the fact that you were holding a weapon at the start of the round won't stop you since you have a free hand by the time you get around to casting the spell.

However, if using one of your hands to throw a weapon for some reason precludes you from being able to attack with that claw, there's no reason you can't use the same claw to perform your 2nd throw. Even if you only had one dagger on the belt, the belt would specifically allow you to get all your thrown attacks with the same dagger. Either way, the other claw was never holding a weapon so you should be able to attack with it.

[Lintecarka]

B is correct, you can't use limbs you performed iterative attacks with to also perform natural attacks.

Another possible combination is 2 throws (one at -5) and a secondary natural claw attack from the claw that never held a dagger. This would prevent you from taking penalties for dual-wielding.

[Claxon]

I believe the 3 weapon attacks are coming from two weapon fighting and 1 iterative attack, and not having improved two weapon fighting feat (and possibly not two weapon fighting feat either, as it's not required to get the attack, just to reduce the attack penalties).

[LordKailas]

Claxon wrote:

I believe the 3 weapon attacks are coming from two weapon fighting and 1 iterative attack, and not having improved two weapon fighting feat (and possibly not two weapon fighting feat either, as it's not required to get the attack, just to reduce the attack penalties).

ah ok, that makes sense.

If the weapon occupying the hand (even if only briefly) precludes that hand from being used then you could do any of the following.

-> 3 Throws
-> 2 Throws and 1 claw (as a secondary)
-> 2 claws (as primary attacks)

If however, throwing the weapons does not preclude you from using your natural weapons then you could do

-> 3 Throws and 2 claw attacks

I believe 3 throws and 2 claws is correct, since natural weapons states.

Natural Attacks wrote:

Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam).

It doesn't say you must forgo a natural attack if it used a manufactured weapon, it just states that this is typically the case. This makes sense when you're talking about melee weapons.

CRB wrote:

You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword.

Now, if you can't combine melee attacks with ranged attacks that's a different issue all together.