Hello
I am new to pathfinder and learning how to do theorycrafting.
I am creating a human 1st level ranger switch hitter and due to the DM's generous point buy system I can have 16 in str dex and con. I have a +2 to put in a stat
I have to decide if make str or dex 18 and I want to have a better idea of when to use deadly aim
I like to see what my DPR is against a range of ac and what to make sure my math is correct
The basic equation is (21-to hit roll)/20* avg damage correct?. An arrow is a d8 so avg damage is 4.5
Two things I am unclear on is how to include criticals and multiple attacks
1st level is easy but at 2nd I get rapid shot and 3rd I plan on getting deadly aim
for 3rd I want to compare firing 1 arrow vs using deadly aim or rapid shot or both of them . Also having 16 dex or 18 dex and favorite enemy
If someone can show me the math I will be grateful. I don't want to forget something
At level 6 I can get manyshot but I can also get crossbow mastery. I know archery is better but has anyone done the math showing its better?
Without knowing the maths properly off the top of my head, getting Dex will be better than getting Strength. Your "to hit" roll is more important than your damage roll since if you miss your damage roll doesn't matter. +1 to hit is worth roughly +2 damage (i'm estimating).
Having said that, you should try to get "precise shot" as soon as possible, since it'll give you +4 to hit a whole lot of the time.
In terms of getting crits involved, your dpr should be: {(chance to hit - chance of landing a crit)*(average damage)} + {(chance of landing a crit)*(average crit damage)}. You can break that down more to make it easier, but that's the essence of it.
For Rapid Shot - from memory you're always better off using rapid shot unless you need exactly an 18 (natural 18 on the dice) to hit. If you need a 17 or less you should use Rapid Shot, if you need a 19 or 20 you should use Rapid shot, if you need an 18 you shouldn't. This changes slightly when you get a second iterative attack, but I can't remember how.
Anywho, hopefully this has been enough of a bump that someone else with more experience in the area will see this and help out.
MrCharisma has it right. Any chance you have to take Manyshot you take it. It's amoung the best damage boosting feats in the game.
There are several calculators online that you can use. Always have rapid shot on almost always have deadly aim on.
I just noticed you said "Switch Hitter".
That does change things a bit, essentially making you less good at either range or melee, but competent at both (rangers do this better than most).
You'll probably get a lot of people say this isn't a good idea. From my perspective, as long as your party isn't super optimised it's not a bad idea. If they ARE super optimised you'll likely have trouble keeping up, and then it's probably not a good idea. Otherwise accept that you'll only be doing 80% of the damage you COULD be doing if you did things differently, but you'll be a bit more adaptable than a straight-up archer, and you'll probably have more fun playing this character (and since fun is really the point of this game that means you win).
So the next question is: Are you going to focus on melee with a little archery? Or are you going to focus on archery with a little melee?
Empty quiver style chain, access to bowstaff, or point blank master are the best ways to use bows in melee. You can use a second weapon but it gets expensive. An ally that can cast magic weapon is a great help.
MrCharisma wrote: I just noticed you said "Switch Hitter".
That does change things a bit, essentially making you less good at either range or melee, but competent at both (rangers do this better than most).
You'll probably get a lot of people say this isn't a good idea. From my perspective, as long as your party isn't super optimised it's not a bad idea. If they ARE super optimised you'll likely have trouble keeping up, and then it's probably not a good idea. Otherwise accept that you'll only be doing 80% of the damage you COULD be doing if you did things differently, but you'll be a bit more adaptable than a straight-up archer, and you'll probably have more fun playing this character (and since fun is really the point of this game that means you win).
So the next question is: Are you going to focus on melee with a little archery? Or are you going to focus on archery with a little melee?
This is a group of 6 where only 1 played Pathfinder. This group will be nowhere close to being super optimised
I plan on going more melee
Grandlounge wrote: MrCharisma has it right. Any chance you have to take Manyshot you take it. It's amoung the best damage boosting feats in the game.
There are several calculators online that you can use. Always have rapid shot on almost always have deadly aim on.
I realize that at level 6 Manyshot is better then crossbow mastery. I just curious to what the difference is and I just want to make sure I do the math correctly
I found this for power attack
https://donjon.bin.sh/d20/power/
I want something that does the same thing for archery.
huggin wrote: The basic equation is (21-to hit roll)/20* avg damage correct?. (...) I am unclear on is how to include criticals How complex do you want it? A basis calculation with crits but without non-critable damage or bonuses to the crit confirmation roll is this:
[(21-TargetAC+AttackBonus)/20 + (21-TargetAC+AttackBonus)/20 * ((CritMultiplier-1)*CritChance)] * AverageDamage
CritChance should be a decimal number, i.e. 0.05
For multiple attacks at different attack roll bonuses, make a seperate calculation for each attack. The bonus attack from Manyshot can't crit, so it's simply (21-TargetAC+AttackBonus)/20 * AverageDamage.
It's the norm to calculate damage per round (DPR) against the average values of a monster with CR equal to the PC's level. Values for that can be taken from either Paizo's monster creation guidelines, of from the average values between all Paizo published monsters, for which I made a spreasheet.
huggin wrote: At level 6 I can get manyshot but I can also get crossbow mastery. I know archery is better but has anyone done the math showing its better? The average damage per shot of a composite longbow with at least 14 strength is higher than that of a heavy crossbow, thus even without Manyshot, a composite longbow is better. When it comes to average damage, 20/x3 and 19-20/x2 crit stats are equal, although the later is generally preferable in practise.
I haven't really played a switch-hitter, as I don't understand that character concept's allure at all, but I think it's kinda weird that you say you want to be mainly in melee, but apparently invest every single feat in your ranged weapon.
I do actually have a fully created CPR calculator spreadsheet, which can be downloaded here.
If you find an error, something missing that you think should be included, or anything else you think I need to change, please say so!
Derklord wrote: huggin wrote: The basic equation is (21-to hit roll)/20* avg damage correct?. (...) I am unclear on is how to include criticals How complex do you want it? How complex can it get?
Derklord wrote: I haven't really played a switch-hitter, as I don't understand that character concept's allure at all, but I think it's kinda weird that you say you want to be mainly in melee, but apparently invest every single feat in your ranged weapon. I am only planning om get archery feats at level 2,6,10,14,18 and get deadly aim at 3 or 5. All other feats will ne melee
The allure for me if I put everything into archey I feel like 1 one trick pony and from playing 1st and 2nd editions ad&d.
In 1st or 2nd archey could do a lot of damage if you specialized in it but there were DM's that tried to create scenarios where it was useless by using magic or terrain or run you out of arrows. Based on personal experience it was rare in 1e if a DM let you craft arrows
The character I loved playing the most was a 1e ranger that used a halberd and heavy crossbow. I had fun with him and wanted to see how well using the same weapons in pathfinder worked
huggin wrote: How complex can it get? From my spreadsheet:
(21-TargetAC+AttackBonus)/20) * (CritableDamage+NonCritableDamage) + (CritMultiplier-1) * CritChance * (21-TargetAC+AttackBonus+CritConfirmBonus)/20) * (CritableDamage+CritOnlyDamage)
NonCritableDamage is stull like Flaming, CritOnlyDamage is stuff like Flaming Burst or Killer, and CritConfirmBonus is stuff like Critical Focus.
Note that you could always further break it down - the AttackBonus is really BAB+AbilityScore+WeaponBonus+SizeMod+MiscBonuses-Penalties, NonCritableDamage is really PrecisionDamage+ElementalDamage, and so on.
Regarding switch hitter: Ok, that looks better than what I'd though. I'd still heavily advice against crossbow, as it takes more feats for less effect. Crossbow is only preferable if you want to invest zero feats, and don't have martial weapon proficiency. It's just so bad in Pathfinder!
I've never played anything before Pathfinder (ignoring video games like NWN), so I don't have any "memorial baggage" there. Thank you for the insight, though!
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Derklord wrote: I do actually have a fully created CPR calculator spreadsheet, which can be downloaded here.
If you find an error, something missing that you think should be included, or anything else you think I need to change, please say so!
Derklord: would you be willing/able to rebuild this as a Google Sheets spreadsheet? I think that would be more useful to more people than an Excel doc.
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The problem is that Google Sheets can't do all my neat little checkboxes, multiple choice options, and dropdown menus.
*sigh*
Check it out!
I hope everything works. Feedback is deeply appreciated!
Edit: Look at that, they've recently added checkboxes. Neat!
Derklord wrote: From my spreadsheet:
(21-TargetAC+AttackBonus)/20) * (CritableDamage+NonCritableDamage) + (CritMultiplier-1) * CritChance * (21-TargetAC+AttackBonus+CritConfirmBonus)/20) * (CritableDamage+CritOnlyDamage)
NonCritableDamage is stull like Flaming, CritOnlyDamage is stuff like Flaming Burst or Killer, and CritConfirmBonus is stuff like Critical Focus.
Note that you could always further break it down - the AttackBonus is really BAB+AbilityScore+WeaponBonus+SizeMod+MiscBonuses-Penalties, NonCritableDamage is really PrecisionDamage+ElementalDamage, and so on.
Regarding switch hitter: Ok, that looks better than what I'd though. I'd still heavily advice against crossbow, as it takes more feats for less effect. Crossbow is only preferable if you want to invest zero feats, and don't have martial weapon proficiency. It's just so bad in Pathfinder!
I've never played anything before Pathfinder (ignoring video games like NWN), so I don't have any "memorial baggage" there. Thank you for the insight, though!
what is the purpose of crit multiplier-1?
I wasn't going to consider crossbows until I saw crossbow mastery was on the list of feats I can pick for free at level 6. It almost makes heavy crossbow viable
I was in a 1e campaign for more then 15 years
In 1e no skills no feats no criticals. The big issue with archery in 1e is when you fired into melee it was random who was hit, also you couldn't make arrows and efficient quiver type items did exist but it was very rare.
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