Hello, all.
I need someone to explain to me (or point me towards somewhere I can get a comprehensive breakdown) of exactly what Karzoug's situation is. What his plan was, why it didn't work and what the current plan for his return actually is. I understand that it involves the Runewell in the Eye of Avarice and the souls of the Greedy...
What is it exactly that prevents Karzoug from simply using Planeshift or similar magics to return from his own demi-plane?
Does Karzoug's Runewell only absorb souls of the Greedy then, and only if they have been marked with the Sihedron via the ritual that Xaneasha taught Aldern Foxglove?
My biggest struggle is trying to understand the mechanics of the Anima Focus, the Soul Lens and the Runewell - how exactly they interact, how they are supposed to work together to free Karzoug (and when) and why they allow the PC's to transport to his demi-plane but do not allow him to transport himself out (yet?).
The Leng Device I think I get - it's a completely separate artifact who's purpose is dimensional and time travel and ultimately serves more as a looming threat than playing any role in Karzoug seeking his freedom, correct?
I'm going to be tinkering with the final series of encounters and I want to be sure I understand fully what is before I start altering it.
Thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to respond, it is very much appreciated.
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Okay, I'll give it a try. Since you spoilered the thread title I'll skip doing it in the response but unless your GMing or otherwise don't care about knowing the heart of the BBEG's background and plans, stop reading now.
First, the AP doesn't provide a lot mechanics around exactly how the Anima Focus, Runewell and Soul Lens work. This is in part on purpose and consistent with the approach throughout the entire AP. The intention is to give pc's/players the appearance of urgency without providing an actual countdown mechanic. So you'll note there aren't any measures like: the giants attack Sandpoint X days after the pc's defeat Barl or Xanesha sacrifices the Mayor Y days after the pc's arrive in Magnimar or Karzoug emerges from the Eye Z days after the pc's arrive in Xin Shalast. The more mechanics on Anima Focus/Soul Lens/Runewell interaction that are provided the more it might encourage a countdown. A countdown poses two problems: 1) you can't really support a timer unless the pc's have a way to know the timer exists and how much time is left and b) different groups work in different ways so a countdown might work great for some groups and be very difficult for others.
The AP doesn't provide a lot of detail on what the original plan for returning Karzoug to power was other than Khalib somehow failed though he too was in stasis. And Karzoug appears to be scapegoating him for the failure of other minions who were not in stasis. One key concept - the devastation from Earthfall was more extensive and total than anyone expected. We might be best to assume the original process was the same as has been adopted today.
Karzoug can't leave the Eye via plane shift or any other method because he is still an extension of the Runewell. The energy/greed harvested via the Anima focus and funneled into the Runewell by the Soul Lens is slowly reconstructing him. Karzoug's plan to escape the looming apocalypse was to enter a form of stasis within the Runewell which had been moved to the Eye of Avarice. In theory this was to protect it (and Karzoug) from destruction. Except everyone that should have helped restore him died (or fled or gave up or decided they'd rather he and Klahib never woke up.) It's not at all clear how long Karzoug expected to be in stasis but it almost certainly was not the 10,000 years that elapsed until Mokmurian broke into the Pinnacle and established contact with a portion of Karzoug's sentience. And he convinced/manipulated Mokmurian into starting the process of getting greed into the Anima Focus to power the restoration of the Runelord. We might assume that in Xin Shalast's heyday there was rampant greed available in Shalast and, more broadly, across all of Thassilon and there was plenty of power for the Runewell but in current times, Varisia is woefully underpopulated so getting greed to sufficient levels takes a long time. At the beginning of the AP, Mokmurian first traveled to Xin Shalast years ago - we might imagine the original plan did not call for Karzoug to take years to reform. But getting even a trickle of greed to the Anima Focus has taken a lot of time and energy.
Short version: Karzoug can't leave. By the time the pc's reach Xin Shalast, the Anima Focus doesn't need any more greed but the Runewell still needs time to finish the process of fully restoring Karzoug. How long that will take is not provided and assumed to be longer than the time it takes the pc's to get there and defeat him (regardless of how long that actually takes.) You can put a timer on it if you want but if he does leave the Eye, that's essentially a complete failure by the pc's. The one advantage the pc's have is that he is pinned in the Eye and they can engage him on their terms. Once he's out, he should leave Xin Shalast immediately and be virtually impossible for the pc's to engage. There is no way for him to engage the pc's at any kind of advantage (assuming the utter defeat of the Pinnacle's residents.) He's immortal - entering combat with opponents armed with Dominant weapons is simply stupid. And he's literally the most intelligent being on Golarion (okay, maybe there are others with an Int of 36 :) Of course leaving the Eye might have all kinds of catastrophic consequences pending the status of the Leng Device.
A method of transport, at least from the Pinnacle to the Eye exists so that Karzoug's minions could support and interact with him while he was being returned from stasis. You might suppose Ceoptra travels there to communicate directly with him and return via plane shift (though that's not on her spells known list...)
I very much appreciate the detailed response - that helps a good deal. The explanation that Greed would presumably have been readily available (particularly throughout Karzoug's domain) helps make sense of a lot of the current circumstances. A few clarifying questions though:
I never came to the conclusion that Karzoug was 'recompiling', for lack of a better term, that he was somehow left less than whole by the process. Is there anywhere you can point to that discusses that so that I might get a better understanding of it? I ask because I was under the impression that merely riding Earthfall out in his demiplane would have been more than adequate protection - after all, why wouldn't it be? The overly complicated mechanic of the Runewell, the Anima Focus, etc. would seem to be completely unnecessary and as such difficult to explain. On the flip side, the idea that he is somehow being 'restored' and isn't yet whole would seem to suggest that he isn't at full power and may be incapable of pretty much anything the GM decides he should be incapable of. I'd like to include this in the mechanic somehow, and while I wouldn't want any rigid 'countdown' to adhere to, having the PC's discover that he is in a weakened state now but getting stronger all the time might help to create the proper sense of urgency.
Karzoug is on a demi-plane created by himself, presumably through some version of the Create Demiplane spell, correct? As such, while he can't necessarily prevent anyone from entering, he is capable of ejecting them as a standard action, which may be a legitimate strategy, particularly for any potentially dangerous martials in the group. Perhaps that's something he wouldn't be able to do until fully 'restored'?
"leaving the Eye might have all kinds of catastrophic consequences pending the status of the Leng Device..."
Is this just something that you're suggesting or are you drawing this from somewhere in the text? I was under the impression that the two are pretty much unrelated.
Please understand that I'm not questioning you, I'm just asking questions. Because the campaign that I'm planning will extend beyond volume VI of RotRL, its best for me to have a solid grasp of what's taking place (you should see what I'm putting together, by the way, it really is something).
One of the solutions I might take in explaining some of Karzoug's actions/circumstances may be that there were a number of developments in magical theory that the era of the Runelords simply hadn't reached yet, just as there was a great deal of knowledge that they possessed which was lost with them and has yet to be rediscovered. Perhaps their version of Create Demiplane or Planeshift worked in a completely different manner than the sort used today. It smacks of Deaux Ex Machina, but that doesn't make it an unreasonable explanation.
Also, as a complete aside, I have come to accept that I simply can't adequately play an immortal character of 36 Intelligence (I'm not sold that I can play a character of 15 Wisdom, to be honest), much less one with knowledge that spans millennia. As a solution, it occurred to me not to pre-plan Karzoug's spell list, but rather have every spell theoretically available to him at the time of the conflict - not as a mechanic of his class or anything but rather to reflect the level of preparedness that he would have but I might not. Does that seem unfair or inappropriate to you?
Again, I appreciate in advance everything you've offered up. I really want to make this campaign as epic as possible and the devil, as you know, is in the details.
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The bit about the Leng device is located in the section with the denizens of Leng. Basically, they've been playing a long con with Karzoug - he contracted them to build a machine that would reach back in time and bring forward the armies of Xin-Shalast into Golarion's present, and ostensibly that's what they've been doing for the last 10,000 years. The idea is that breaching the planar boundaries between the Material Plane and the Eye of Avarice requires a lot of mystical energy, and the Leng device would use that energy to give Karzoug a fanatical army at his disposal.
The only problem is that the denizens of Leng had no such intention. The device does gather the mystical energies of a Runelord's return, but its design does not breach the barriers of time. Instead, the energies are directed into Mhar Massif itself, in an attempt to finish birthing the Great Old One Mhar into the Material Plane. Karzoug's forces are basically doomed, as both outcomes doom them to die waiting for a portal that never comes. However, if the PCs don't defeat the denizens of Leng, then they have a Great Old One stomping around Varisia - and oddly, Karzoug might be their greatest ally against Mhar!
Okay, this is going to be another long one.
First, I'm going to quote some text from the AP - Anniversary Edition p. 364-5.
"The soul lens itself is mounted on an articulated adamantine frame above, set to focus and magnify soul fragments of all those slain over the past several months in preparation for Karzoug’s release. By the time the PCs arrive, Karzoug’s runewell should be almost fully charged—once it becomes completely charged (at a point you should feel free to determine yourself, should the PCs not defeat Karzoug on their first visit to the Eye of Avarice), Karzoug can step into the runewell and emerge in area X16 of the Pinnacle of Avarice, once again free to spread his evil across the world."
"Although Karzoug spent the bulk of the last 10,000 years in stasis, he’s been able to spend some time reading and studying the tomes here since Mokmurian woke him from his slumber."
"For most of the previous 10,000 years, Karzoug had been seated upon his throne in a unique form of temporal stasis that kept the wizard trapped within the runewell itself without a body at all. When Mokmurian came to this place, Karzoug was able to reach out and, through sheer force of will augmented by thousands of years of pent-up magic, made the stone giant wizard into his puppet. Since then, the souls of those properly anointed with the Sihedron and steeped in greed have been suffusing the runewell at the heart of this realm, each one allowing Karzoug’s physical body to manifest more and more. At first, only his vague ghostly outline could appear, and for only a few moments at a time, but now that the runewell is full, Karzoug has truly returned to flesh and blood—at least, as long as he remains within the Eye of Avarice."
So, my conclusion: Karzoug is fully functional within the Eye but can't leave yet. But he can soon. GM's discretion how much time remains.
The construct of Anima Focus, Soul Lens and Runewell does seem complicated. And I can't explain why that mechanism was chosen by Karzoug. At least based on anything in the AP itself. I can make something up: The Runelords knew some immense catastrophe was coming but didn't know the details so they (Karzoug) had to plan against the worst possible outcomes. Example: what if the danger was targeted against the Runelords themselves? Being hidden within the Runewell made Karzoug hard to target and made him invulnerable to a whole bunch of effects that might have found him even in a demi-plane. Of course, remaining dependent on the Anima Focus and Pinnacle left behind on Golarion might seem to make this moot. And the dependence on minions to take action to restore him utterly failed as those minions were prevented from doing so by the very catastrophe he/they were trying to avoid. If you want, you could chalk it up to hubris - the Runelords could conceive of their own demise but not the utter destruction of Thassilon itself.
Keep in mind there is a significant meta-game imperative here - this narrative is simply justification for pinning Karzoug in place. Again quoting from p. 365: "Yet their greatest advantage is the fact that, for now, Karzoug has nowhere to go. The PCs can prepare for their attack on him, only bringing the fight when they feel they are ready." A conflict with a 21st level wizard with full mobility and the resources of a Runelord of Greed (however diminished from the heights of Thassilon) is an exponential increase in difficulty for the players and challenge for the GM. A challenge many groups may not want to tackle and very hard to do justice to in a published adventure.
I would not assume that the Eye was built using the Create Demi-plane spell. Indeed my assumption would be that spell didn't exist (in Pathfinder rule form) when the AP was written. If the use of the spell was the intention, I think that would have been mentioned. Also the demiplanes created by the various demiplane spells can be taken out by things like mage's disjunction or wish (if cast from within the demi-plane itself) - hardly a truly secure redoubt for a wizard seeking to avoid destruction.
My reference to leaving the Eye was specific to Karzoug. If the Leng Device is functional and he successfully returns to Golarion, Mhar is released, Xin Shalast is obliterated and the rest of Golarion has a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad day.
Realistically playing a 21st level wizard with an Int of 36 can be hard. I'll go out on a limb and assert none of us has such an Int. But if you've GM'd for even a moderate amount of time, you've run other creatures with higher Int than you have. None of us has an Int of 25 either but many of us have run an Ice Devil (and will have by the time the pc's get to the Pinnacle.) I get why you're thinking about giving Karzoug that kind of spell flexibility but that seems a bridge too far (in my view.) And, if I follow, you intend to run the campaign past the end of the AP as written - you'll then need something even more powerful/threatening than Karzoug - what do you do then?
My approach was to use a mechanic from the AP - since the pc's have been in the Pinnacle, if not long before, one or more of them are wearing items that let Karzoug scry on them virtually at will. Further he has fought them directly (in statue form in Runeforge and in image form in the Pinnacle.) Simply put: Karzoug knows all about them, their typical tactics, their magic items, their weaknesses, all of it. If you know the best way to defeat your pc's, so does Karzoug. Further, I expected my players to rest in the room of the Anima Focus (having exterminated every resident of the Pinnacle) so Karzoug knew when they were coming, knew what pre-casting/buffing they were going to do and had just as much time (and a little more) to do buffing and pre-casting for himself and minions. I also completely overhauled his spell memorization, removing several of the... umm, lackluster choices in the AP version. Example: if the pc's have dominant weapons, he shouldn't memorize a single transmutation spell that is targeted and can be absorbed by said weapons. Indeed from the moment Karzoug confronts them in Runeforge he must begin planning their deaths. The pc's have just braved innumerable and immense dangers in a single-minded mission to create weapons that could otherwise be called Karzoug-Killers.
Thanks yet again, all of you, for taking the time to address this issue in such full detail - its helped a great deal.
The campaign I'm putting together involves 10 different AP volumes (RotRL x6, SS x3, CotCT x1), between 6 and 8 PFS scenarios (mostly from season 4) and a fair bit of re-writing in order to tailor them all into one cohesive - and really epic - story. Because its so essential for the campaign world to be a living one, I need to have a good understanding of what and how the various factions are up to.
Much appreciated.
The campaign I'm putting together involves 10 different AP volumes (RotRL x6, SS x3, CotCT x1), between 6 and 8 PFS scenarios (mostly from season 4)
Ooh this sounds like an epic - you've got me curious now Wiggz.
If it's not too much trouble can tell us know which RotRL, SS and CotCT adventures you are using? What is the story that you are using to link them?