As I read it, the Planar Binding spells first effect is calling an outsider from another plane to a preapred trap. But this by itself doesn't provide any control over it.
The second effect is keeping them trapped until they make a deal with the binder. The deal can be also forced upon them (with high enough Charisma roll). There are ways for them to escape, but generally they are physicaly trapped, although the binder has no control over ther will.
Thirdly, it provides magic for the contract itself, making it so that fullfilling the contract sends the outsider back to their home plane.
However I don't see anything in the spell that forces the outsider to try to fulfill the contract. If it would rather stay on the Material Plane, or if it has another method of returning home, there doesn't seem to be anything other than the promise of the reward preventing it from doing so.
Is that correct?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You don't have to have a trap prepared.
It also don't keep them trapped on its own, that's the Magic Circle spell.
It also doesn't force them to work with you, only the virtue of potentially being trapped encourages them to work with you, along with your bargaining and diplomatic skills.
The spell touches on the fact that it can simply return home if it wants, using dimensional travel abilities if it has such, that's why it suggest using Dimensional Anchor. This is why it would typically be a bad idea to try to bind things with their own planar travel abilities.
And yes, the creature can try to kill you. Which is why you use the trap spells in the first place, and offer it a good deal so that it wants to work with you instead of killing you.
Honestly, I'm generally disappointed with how this spell is typically run (i.e. Free Ally with No Problems!) as opposed to a very dangerous act that should generally result in any evil bound creatures typically trying to kill you. Good creatures are probably willing to listen to you and take "good" tasks in return for compensation and neutral creatures are likely willing to work for good compensation.
Anyways, there's no compulsion or geas affect that automatically accompanies planar binding.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It is implied that the creature, once it has agreed, is forced to obey to the letter of your command (not to the spirit of it), but it is not written explicitly.
There is a bit of extra material in the Binding Outsiders section of Ultimate Magic, but again no mention of them being forced to abide to the pact agrred with planar binding.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The magic of the spell forces the outsider to stay on the material (not returning home) until the contract you form is fulfilled to the letter. Also, my understanding of the nature of outsiders is that the very quintessence they are made of lends them to being by their nature at least partially bound by contracts. That said, a Lawful being basically cannot violate a contract- it is simply against their nature.
Another way of looking at it is that the charisma check is you finally getting the outsider to do as you tell it to- either by convincing it that helping you will net it more than not, or by convincing it that you are so incredibly more powerful than it that you'll utterly annihilate it if it doesn't obey.
So, in other words, no. It is not a geas effect (which could be negated through magic or immunity to mind-affecting). It's just that you've convinced the outsider that it really, really shouldn't betray you, for one reason or another (it wants to go home, it thinks you'll destroy it, or it wants whatever reward you promise)
It's just that you've convinced the outsider that it really, really shouldn't betray you, for one reason or another (it wants to go home, it thinks you'll destroy it, or it wants whatever reward you promise)
Would you say then that they are free to change their mind when the situation changes?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's just that you've convinced the outsider that it really, really shouldn't betray you, for one reason or another (it wants to go home, it thinks you'll destroy it, or it wants whatever reward you promise)Would you say then that they are free to change their mind when the situation changes?
Eh, not really. There's published instances of that not happening (I believe there is a monster in a Paizo adventure (Treasure of Chimera Cove?) that is eternally frustrated because he needed to kill 300-odd people guarding this one area, and he's been 5 short for centuries), so clearly there's some level of magic implicit in the contract that prevents it, and besides, still the only way they can return home is to complete the contract. So, even if they never had any intention of going back to their home plane once their task is completed (which is apparently an option, going by certain bestiary entries), there's still some level of magic, whether included in the Binding spell or an innate part of all outsiders, that at the very least highly discourages any breaking of the contract.
EDIT:
Essentially, while there is nothing spelled out as to the exact nature of how the contracts work, there is empirically some effect acting to ensure that outsiders, regardless of how chaotic, evil, or undermining, they may be, follow their orders to the letter.
The only exception to this is the Qlippoth, whose flavor text in Binding Outsiders reads
While qlippoth may bargain with mortal spellcasters, they don't feel bound to follow such agreements, and often blatantly disregard the orders of their binders, no matter the consequences.
However, there's no rules anywhere to explain what this means, but this means that, by any reading, every kind of outsider except the qlippoth will follow orders and that there are consequences if they don't. It's even possible that qlippoths will also follow orders, as nothing anywhere gives any information as to how they might break the contract, and what happens if they do.
|
|
@Daedalous: Note that Planar binding say something different
Note that a clever recipient can subvert some instructions.
So they are neither convinced or fearful of your retaliation.
And the frustrated creature waiting for its last 5 kills probably isn't the subject of planar binding, as "If you assign some open-ended task that the creature cannot complete through its own actions, the spell remains in effect for a maximum of 1 day per caster level," seem to stop it from working that way.
It was explicitly Called, from what I can recall. Besides, "kill 356 intruders" isn't open-ended, it just takes a while. In terms of subverting your instructions, that would be following the commands to the letter while doing something you absolutely didn't want them to do. For instance, a command to 'guard this treasure room' might result in them throwing all the treasure inside out of the room, and then 'guarding' the empty room until their service expired. Or a command to 'protect me from all harm' might get you locked away in a secure room with lots of food and water. What? You won't be harmed. The key in both of those is that the creature was very careful to obey the letter of the contract, but violating it in principle.
Yeah, it wouldn't be the first time writers have taken liberties with the function of certain magics to do things they technically cannot.
And personally I don't view the information on Qlippoth as an exception to the rules, but rather illustrates that other creatures more often follow the agreement for various reasons, while Qlippoth just DGAF.
Honestly, this has always been one of those spells that you should work out with your GM how it should function. Because even if it works like geas it still causes plenty of problems on the GMs end. Like why the creature doesn't constantly try to kill you afterwards unless your goals aligned in the first place.
Also, I guess at this point I should mention that I'm the author of DMDM's Guide to Planar Binding and DMDM's Guide to the Diabolist (the original, pre-nerf Diabolist). You can find both those guides, and more stuff of perhaps possible interest, right over here.
In the Guide to Planar Binding, I try to interpret the RAW in ways that (1) are consistent with the RAW, (2) make sense, and (3) are likely to lead to fun play, more or less in that order. You can decide for yourself if it works for you. The Guide to the Diabolist has been rendered partially obsolete by Paizo's "reworking" of the Diabolist, but is still worth a look if you want to build a PC or NPC around the planar binding spell.
Oh, and: Paizo will probably never clarify this, because the Planar Binding spells have never been allowed in PFS. PFS stuff may eventually get FAQed and clarified; higher level or non-PFS stuff almost never does.
Doug M.
Nobody really ask about this spell, but they'd probably call it a non-FAQ question and basically say "ask your GM".