Say a creature with Tremorsense 60ft. is standing in a house 50ft. wide and 30ft. up (3 floors). What can the creature sense?
Only people on the first floor or everybody in the house? Does the material of the house matter?
Depends on how close they are to the walls.
You would likely count off the distance, following line of effect along viable 'ground' and possibly walls until you reach the distance of the creature's tremorsense. For instance, someone standing up a 20 foot cliff, even if only 10 feet away from the source of a 30 foot range tremorsense would be detectable. Someone just a square or two further back would be 'invisible'.
In the case of a house, unless it were very solidly structured and contiguous, like thick stone walls and floors, then your GM can probably rule that the intervening 'pathways' of tremors (wooden floorboard, rafters, beams, etc.) are just too confusing. Like trying to scan a room while a strobe light is going off or listening through a field of static.
Why would that be confusing unless the whole house vibrates?
slade867 wrote: Why would that be confusing unless the whole house vibrates? As this is Rules: rules-wise, a GM can just declare different levels to not be considered the same ground.
Wanted to clarify that first before the part you asked about, which is less Rules and more just how a GM would explain it quickly as to why its working in a certain way.
'Confusing' was used in the sense that you're trying to describe how a sense works to people that generally don't perceive things in that sense. It's like trying to describe color to a blind person. Or a dolphin trying to describe a room it saw with echolocation to another dolphin by using words. Normally, it would just send a copy of the echo-pattern and the other dolphin would just 'see' exactly what it was. A human would have a hard time even comprehending that level of specificity.
A GM saying that you have trouble getting a clear picture because of 'confusion' was meant to mean that your perceptions are garbled, interfered with, or not as effective. Saying that the whole building has to be shaking to hide someone in a room from tremorsense is like saying that someone in a dark room is easy to see unless the entire house is dark, or trying to hear someone in a soundproofed room is no challenge unless the entire house is silenced.
But more importantly, it was meant to help a GM keep the game moving while giving a quick, reasonable answer for why you might not be able to accurately determine the details of something otherwise within your 'sight' range... without having to spend 4 paragraphs explaining why it isn't working, like now. If your GM tell you, 'The waves of heat coming off the sand make it confusing to accurately determine the distance you are from the mountains.' He shouldn't have to explain how convention currents and differing medias affect the speed of light, even though the amount of difference on that scale of speed is so infinitesimal and even at miles of distance it's practically absolutely no distance to light at all... I think most of us would understand that demanding the GM declare that the entire world or even the desert be giving off heat waves is unreasonable, just the spaces between or including where the target you're looking at is (and then, maybe even only one tiny, little slice or intersecting spot where a wave of heat is rising).
For tremorsense, this just has to be a reasonable disconnect from where your target is from where the 'ground' is (where you are sensing from). A GM can easily just say that the 2nd or 3rd floor of a house isn't 'the ground'. Period. They can rule that you do not sense a creature standing on the roof of a house even if you are only 15 feet away from them linearly. They might just as easily allow tremorsense to work 1 minute later if you end up standing on that very same roof as your target, even though a roof is clearly not the ground.
Just like they can assign penalties if you're trying to maneuver or navigate by looking in a mirror or you're peering through binoculars as you walk (even though they may let you see what you're moving towards way more clearly than your normal vision). Sometimes a creature is just overwhelmed by a 'confusion' on input, data, or perceptions that are not considered normal and easy to process. Just like you could probably listen to 100 different songs in a row and be fine. Trying to listen to them all at once, would be 'confusing' (10 would probably be sufficient for most people).
Similarly, if your tremorsense is winding around a spaghetti network of pipes, pits, holes, and chasms and uphill to different levels through differing mediums. A GM can just say that the line of effect is too confusing (because they don't want to chart out a route along three different top down map layouts by measuring out the distance, height, and points of contact amongst every possible permutation and path between you and a creature on some other level you might not even encounter this session if you don't find a way down to it. This is not implying laziness or a desire to trick or mislead, just whether it's worth it or not for all involved.) Far easier to just go with the ruling that the two differing levels are not considered the same 'ground' unless significantly in contact where there isn't even a doubt.
Pizza Lord wrote: slade867 wrote: Why would that be confusing unless the whole house vibrates? 'Confusing' is used in the sense that you're trying to describe how a sense works to people that generally don't perceive things in that sense. It's like trying to describe color to a blind person. Or a dolphin trying to describe a room it saw with echolocation to another dolphin by using words. Normally, it would just send a copy of the echo-pattern and the other dolphin would just 'see' exactly what it was. A human would have a hard time even comprehending that level of specificity.
A GM saying that you have trouble getting a clear picture because of 'confusion' was meant to mean that your perceptions are garbled, interfered with, or not as effective. Saying that the whole building has to be shaking to hide someone in a room from tremorsense is like saying that someone in a dark room is easy to see unless the entire house is dark, or trying to hear someone in a soundproofed room is no challenge unless the entire house is silenced.
But more importantly, it was meant to help a GM keep the game moving while giving a quick, reasonable answer for why you might not be able to accurately determine the details of something otherwise within your 'sight' range... without having to spend 4 paragraphs explaining why it isn't working, like now. If your GM tell you, 'The waves of heat coming off the sand make it confusing to accurately determine the distance you are from the mountains.' He shouldn't have to explain how convention currents and differing medias affect the speed of light, even though the amount of difference on that scale of speed is so infinitesimal and even at miles of distance it's practically absolutely no distance to light at all... I think most of us would understand that demanding the GM declare that the entire world or even the desert be giving off heat waves is unreasonable, just the spaces between or including where the target you're looking at is (and then, maybe even only one tiny,... The issue with this is that there are real creatures that have the ability to sense tremors in the ground. There are spiders that can sense the slightest sensation on any part of their web which I would compare to the analogy of winding around pipes and pits etc. There are also tarantulas that can sense vibration in the ground outside their lair.
Catfish can sense vibrations in the water through their barbels. And that is in brackish water, often surrounded by debris and branches etc.
That is how I would treat it. If there is a point of physical contact that can be traced between the user and the target I would more or less just draw a 30'radius bubble around the User. If the Target falls within the bubble they are sensed.
Well the GM can say whatever they like. They are the final word in their own game. I was looking for something more concrete.
Maybe "ground" is everything so if they stand on a rock or even on a rug on the dirt, tremorsense is defeated. Maybe so long as they are touching something that is touching something that is touching something that is touching the ground tremorsense is effective. I don't know. That's why I'm asking.
Lunaramblings wrote: The issue with this is that there are real creatures that have the ability to sense tremors in the ground. There are spiders that can sense the slightest sensation on any part of their web which I would compare to the analogy of winding around pipes and pits etc. ...
Catfish can sense vibrations in the water through their barbels. And that is in brackish water, often surrounded by debris and branches etc.
This isn't an issue. These things are covered in the rules. There aren't a lot of catfish statted out, but the one I find does have tremorsense. As such:
Tremorsense wrote: ...Aquatic creatures with tremorsense can also sense the location of creatures moving through water.... The ability you are mentioning is accounted for.
As for spiders:
Web wrote: ... A creature can move across its own web at its climb speed and can pinpoint the location of any creature touching its web. So that is all covered by the rules.
What isn't covered is some particular situations or positioning that cause problems. For instance, if the catfish's river was full of floating sticks and debris (not just brackish or containing roots, which is considered the norm), then trying to pick out another fish or object amongst a swirling chaos of similar shapes and sizes would be as tough as picking a creature out a crowd or mob.
In the case of the spider, despite the wording, we assume the webs have to be connected. For instance, a spider in a corner shouldn't know when a creature touches a completely separate web in the opposite corner, even one spun by that spider personally. A GM could also rule that the ability to note an accurate location on the opposite side could be hindered if a tree trunk and fallen across the center of a large web, even if some of the strands are still connected, just beneath the trunk or tangled up around it.
slade867 wrote: Maybe "ground" is everything so if they stand on a rock or even on a rug on the dirt, tremorsense is defeated. Maybe so long as they are touching something that is touching something that is touching something that is touching the ground tremorsense is effective. I don't know. That's why I'm asking. Of course, though I think it's safe to assume most people consider a rock to be part of the ground.
However, remember your question was specifically about being indoors, and specifically a building, rather than an underground structure where the ground is considered to be encompassing or significantly touching multiple areas. A such, the answer you got was focused on that.
In the general case of tremorsense (rather than some creature's specific version that could be judged to work in it's own variation despite using the same name), it's probably safe to assume it will work on the same level and that, unless the building structure is of materials and composition that would be considered 'ground', it won't work through wood, metal, air, or water (regardless of the sound or vibration carrying attributes of that medium).
It would be unusual to have a creature with tremorsense be able to note the location of a character 10 feet over and 15 feet up the suspended rope of a rope trick (not inside it, just going up or down the rope for instance) because one end of the rope is touching the ground. Similarly, a spider in a web shouldn't be pinpointed by tremorsense, even if a significant amount of webbing is anchored to the floor, walls and ceiling.
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