Tanking build needing some refining

[Moonheart]

The goal of this build is to generate a character which takes hits instead of his adjacant allies, and sustain incoming the damage the best he can.

Class: Paladin
Archetype: Holy Tactician
Race: Human
Traits: Helpful, Adopted (Inheritor)
Stats: Str 14/Dex 14/Con 14/Cha 16
Feats:
1- Fey Foundling
H1- Combat Reflexes
3- Bodyguard
HT3- Bonded Mind
5- In Harm's Way
7- Vangard style
HT7- Harrying Partners
9- Vangard Ward
11- Toughness
13- Extra Lay on Hands
HT13- Take the Hit

Mechanics:
The character will use Bodyguard the first time per round any adjacent ally is attacked.
Due to the two traits and Vanguard Ward, this will provide the said ally a +4AC, +2Reflex bonus.
Sharing the Harrying Partners through its archetype ability, the character will make those bonuses last for a full round.
Due to In Harm's Way, if any attack neverless succeed against the ward while the bonuses last, the character will be able to redirect the damage and the side effects to himself
Lastly, with Fey Foundling, the character can get a lot of HP back each turn as a swift action, using Lay on Hands on himself.

The archetype will also make easier for the character to stay adjacent to him, because of the "Guide the Battle" ability it gains at level 8, giving a free extra 5ft step each round.

Outside of combat, the character can share the "Bonded Mind" teamwork feat instead, which will allow him to use "Take the hit" if a teammate takes unexpected damage form environment or traps.

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Is there a way to improve this concept further more?

[avr]

This concept seems made for an oradin. Life link would be perfect.

As given though you'd get teamwork feats at levels 3, 7, 11 not 3, 7, 13.

Magic items to remember are a ring of tactical precision, merciful vambraces and benevolent magic armor.

[Moonheart]

Right, I mistaken the level for the 3rd extra feat. Good catch.

And yes, I think those items will be needed too.

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For the Oradin:

That build take 100% of the damage of all adjacent allies on yourself anytime you chose with the In Harm's Way + Harrying Partners combo. So the Life Link won't do anything for those allies.

People who cannot save like this are people who are taking damage by spells which doesn't use attack rolls... and at medium/high levels, a 5-per-turn hp is not going to save allies from that kind of attacks anyway, IMHO.

Meanwhile, you will weaken you own Lay of Hands by multiclassing, which is the main source of survivability of this build.

So.. I do have mixed feelings for the Oradin in this concept.

[Slim Jim]

- Greater Mercy (take at 3rd) is a very, very good idea if you're going to be constantly intercepting damage via In Harm's Way.

- Don't take Vanguard Style, or indeed any feat that requires Immediate actions because those will nerf the following-round swift actions you need to trigger LoH. (A lot of these situations are not going to happen that often, and feats are precious to a paladin; anything not used multiple times per encounter is likely inferior to other choices.)

- Toughness at 11th. If you really need this at 11th, you should be dead already.

Quote:

Stats: Str 14/Dex 14/Con 14/Cha 16

What are the other two stats?

(If this point-buy? I get the impression it is.)
.

Holy Tactician wrote:

This ability replaces smite evil.

This ability replaces divine health and divine bond.
This ability replaces aura of courage.
This ability replaces aura of resolve.
This ability replaces aura of justice.

...no, no, NO, NO, NOOOoooo....

It's a testament to the strength of the core class that paladin archetype are invariably horrible traps, and this is one of the worst. (All of those Auras are *super* party buffs, some of the very best in the game, and they are automatic. This archetype forfeits all of them for abilities that eat action-economy. Losing Smite really hurts; you get something similar but is half-strength and unable to take advantage of the classic paladin-oriented magical items.)

-- If you want a few Teamwork feats, get a Champion's Helm. (Also, dipping a level of Cavalier at 1st level will give you another, and you'll still end up doing more damage on Smites than a Holy Tactician despite the multiclassing.) That gets you two almost painlessly.

~ ~ ~

Suggestion: play an elf rather than a human; it'll give you a bump to dex (which you don't mind over strength that much since you're going Combat Reflexes anyway). The con penalty is is like not having a penalty at all in a FF/GM paladin.

* Immune to Sleep (i.e., one of the immunities paladins don't get, not that they typically fail saves anyway, but it's there. Piss off the witches.)
* +2 to assorted other saves means you can confidently dump wis to 7 (if point-buy)
* Favored class option: add +1/2 hit point to the paladin’s lay on hands ability (Absolutely take this.)
* racial proficiency in a high-threat exotic weapon. (Alternatively, trade out Elven Magic and Weapon Familiarity for the Forlorn racial alternative which grants Skill Focus as an additional feat, similar to what half-elves start with. Pick up curve blade familiarity with a 1500gp ioun stone later.)

~ ~ ~

Elf [Forlorn]
1. Cavalier1 [Constable:Improved Unarmed Strike][Teamwork Feat(any)], Skill Focus[Perception], Fey Foundling

...How's that for a 1st-level front-load? You yoink four feats as a non-human(!), one of which has you at a racial +9 to Perception with a single skill rank before adding Wis bonus.

2. paladin1 [core][elven favored class advancement]
3. paladin2 [LoH:1d6+3], FEAT(g) ...Combat Reflexes, if your priority
4. paladin3 [Mercy]
5. paladin4 LoH:3d6+8], Greater Mercy
6. paladin5
7. paladin6 [LoH:4d6+11], FEAT(g) ...probably Power Attack
8. ...etc....

[Moonheart]

Those are great inputs ans idea, Slim, thank you.
However, two little points, if you allow me:

Slim Jim wrote:

- Don't take Vanguard Style, or indeed any feat that requires Immediate actions because those will nerf the following-round swift actions you need to trigger LoH.

Vanguard style do not use immediate action, but attack of opportunities, that's why this style is compatible with the build.

Quote:

Holy Tactician wrote:

This ability replaces smite evil.

This ability replaces divine health and divine bond.
This ability replaces aura of courage.
This ability replaces aura of resolve.
This ability replaces aura of justice.

...no, no, NO, NO, NOOOoooo....0

It's a testament to the strength of the core class that paladin archetype are invariably horrible traps, and this is one of the worst. (All of those Auras are *super* party buffs, some of the very best in the game, and they are automatic. This archetype forfeits all of them for abilities that eat action-economy. Losing Smite really hurts; you get something similar but is half-strength and unable to take advantage of the classic paladin-oriented magical items.)

-- If you want a few Teamwork feats, get a Champion's Helm. (Also, dipping a level of Cavalier at 1st level will give you another, and you'll still end up doing more damage on Smites than a Holy Tactician despite the multiclassing.) That gets you two almost painlessly.

~ ~ ~

I do think you missed why the holy tactician is a good archetype: most of his abilities have NO time limit.

While with a dip in cavalier, you must use one standard action to share a teamwork feat during 3 round only for the day, the holy tactician activate his sharing when he wake up in the morning, and this share stay all the day long without costing any action during the battles
That's pratically the same than the passive buff of the basic auras.

Then, for the replacement of smite, it is not "half strength" either: It is just a SHARED variant of the smite ability.
While you get a bit less of bonuses yourself with it, all your teammates are going to benefit from being able to "smite" with you.

Also, remember I want to build a tank, not a striker or a buffer. You can't gain an amazing defense without sacrifying something anyway.

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Greater mercy, and elf's favored class are truly great ideas.

[Slim Jim]

Moonheart wrote:

Quote:

Don't take Vanguard Style, or indeed any feat that requires Immediate actions because those will nerf the following-round swift actions you need to trigger LoH.

Vanguard style do not use immediate action, but attack of opportunities, that's why this style is compatible with the build.

It's a Style feat; you have to activate the style, and that consumes a swift action.

Quote:

I do think you missed why the holy tactician is a good archetype: most of his abilities have NO time limit.

The Auras being replaced are on 100% of the time so long as you have a pulse and are awake, and are granting +4 to everybody in the party versus a wide array of Save-or-Suck.

Quote:

While with a dip in cavalier, you must use one standard action to share a teamwork feat during 3 round only for the day, the holy tactician activate his sharing when he wake up in the morning, and this share stay all the day long without costing any action during the battles

Most fights only last a few rounds anyway, or at least the "important" part of them.

Quote:

That's pratically the same than the passive buff of the basic auras.

It's nowhere close -- Failing a save-or-suck *kills characters* in higher level games; having a core paladin along makes it MUCH easier. The core auras are way, way better than getting some minor combat bonuses.

Lastly, 10k becomes chump-change at the double-digit levels; there's nothing preventing you owning multiple Commander's Helms.

Quote:

Then, for the replacement of smite, it is not "half strength" either: It is just a SHARED variant of the smite ability. While you get a bit less of bonuses yourself with it, all your teammates are going to benefit from being able to "smite" with you.

1) You have to hit the thing first. 2) Only good-alignment allies qualify. 3) You don't get Smite bonus to AC versus smite buddy. 4) The bonus eligible allies receive is a Competence bonus, which is the one of the most common types of bonus in the game (alongside Morale) and therefore won't stack with a lot of abilities and gear your allies may already possess.

Quote:

Also, remember I want to build a tank, not a striker or a buffer. You can't gain an amazing defense without sacrifying something anyway.

A core paladin doesn't have to sacrifice anything:

* ...gain Cha bonus to AC versus smite targets
* ...LoH potentially stronger than an equivalent-level cleric's best Cure XYZ Wounds spell (see build).
* ...eligible for Smite items, such a Bracers of the Avenging Knight and Insignia of Valor.

[Moonheart]

I think you're getting farther and farther of the point.
The goal of this build is to be a TANK.

I won't trade the reliability of the main tanking mechanic of the build just to make more powerful smites.
The Cavalier dip work ONCE per day, and mutiple Commander's Helm relies on the hypothetical assumption your DM is doing to let you have them...

As for the auras, yes, they are good, but deal with the save or suck spells is not the role of a tank either.
That's the role of the spellcasters.

[Scott Wilhelm]

I didn't see what your weapon was. Since you have Bodyguard, it's probably some big reach weapon like a Lucerne Hammer.

My favorite Teamwork Feat is Broken Wing Gambit. If you have that, and your Tactician Class Ability, whenever any of you is attacked, all of you get Attacks of Opportunity!

You got to work in BWG.

[Dave Justus]

I actually think Weal's Champion is one of the better alternate smites out there. Not quite as powerful, but active for a time against everyone evil and the bonus to the party is a nice extra. Losing the bypass of DR hurts a lot though.

Big problem I see with this concept is that it absolutely depends on a party working in a coordinated fashion. If you don't have an adjacent ally you can't perform the main function you see here. I'm also having difficulty in seeing how the rest of the party would be built to integrate with this concept.

The character functions as sort of battlefield control character in that his main function is negating damage. He should also be ok as a secondary striker, since as far as I can tell he will be able to attack just fine on his turns. The problem though is that while he does a battlefield control function, he only does it in a very narrow and specific way, and probably can't substitute having a full time controller in the party. Similarly, he has a bit of support (his Weal's Champion and some healing) but not enough to really replace someone providing focused party support (also Weal's Champion doesn't stack with the classic support mechanism: Inspire Courage.)

So that leaves us with needing a battlefield controller, needing a support character, and in a 4 person party the other character would be a striker. Good enough, and fairly classic, but the concept here is that this character is going to have to remain adjacent to the other striker, limiting the ability to provide a 'frontline' and making it harder for you both to consistently get full attacks, unless all the enemies are stupid enough to just swarm the pair of you.

In a 5 person party, with 2 strikers, I think the concept would be a lot more viable. For a 4 person party, I think you might could make something work with the others being 3/4 bab versatile characters (maybe one other full bab) all participating in melee some of the time and providing control or support functions at other times. This could theoretically work, but would require a lot of coordination and tactical ability to make sure every 'job' gets properly covered. And of course you would have to get the other players buy-in for the concept.

I don't want to say it isn't a neat concept, I'm just worried that if you don't think it through you will find it less effective in play than you imagine. It wouldn't be any fun to spend all those feats to take the hit, and then find out it is pretty tough to stay adjacent to allies to use them.