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So awhile back...I posted this thread...
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uab6?StarCraft-Protoss-Race#5
I didn't get responses till about 2 days later, so I stopped paying attention cause I thought...well...it's been a couple days...I doubt anyone is going to look at now...other posts will knock it down.
I was wrong. People actually did comment; I just didn't pay any attention.
Now I have actually started a campaign that actually involved the use of some of this; and I saw the problems...some of which people commented on. And I went back to fix them. And now I am doing a repost that hopefully people will comment on and; I actually pay attention this time...
Anyway...I'm a big fan of the StarCraft series. It's probably my favorite RTS game...it had a great map maker, compelling story, alot of action, kick ass soundtrack and visuals for 1997, and memorable characters. I decided to make my own version (a year ago) of two very important creatures in the universe.
The two PDFs I have here are two things: A Protoss racial sheet, and a Zerg Monster stat sheet.
The Protoss racial sheet features (as mentioned from my last thread...a year ago...:\ ) the following:
The Protoss's description of the race
The Protoss racial stats
Protoss Alternate racial traits
Protoss Favored Class Options
Racial Classes: Dark Templar and High Templar
Alternate Racial Archetypes: Zealot (Cavalier), Phase Smith (Wizard), Ascendant (High Templar).
Racial Feats
Racial Equipment and Technology
Racial Magic Items
Racial Spells
Racial Artifacts
Stats for Archon and Dark Archon
I paid alot of attention to the in game lore to create all of this; and I believe what I am posting here should have fixed any problems from the last PDF I set up for download..if anyone from a year ago is even watching...
The new PDF I am posting included in this is a monster stat sheet for all of the Zerg strains. It includes some templates, some environmental challenges, rules for creating one's own Zerg hive (which can be tweaked around...not really something I focused on creating when I wrote this out), and other fun things. I used the Monster Creation page in the Bestiary, and I think I got them as close to balanced as I could get.
Anyway, these are all free to download and use. Let me know in the posts what you think...and this time I'll pay attention.
The Protoss Race: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1IwLq0rOnsof17XUH0IGBv2oG10-4Dnp8
The Zerg Monster sheet: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1uBd6STcfsBVUy-xs1JXgoET0Zgh0l9uY
Good to have some free Protoss and Zerg stuff for the Pathfinder ruleset out there. ;)
Protoss Resolve: Protoss have a +2 to saves against mind effects and fear.
I don't like this. It is shown in SC2 LotV that the khala is actually a very scary thing in terms of mental domination.
Mass control of large portions of the populace turning them against themselves
Is templar caste not the wrong way around? Surely the templar are the psionic warriors? Unless you are referring to the Dark Templar.
Nerazim alternate trait should remove the Protoss Resolve as you have it.
Rather I would have the default protoss have a weakness against domination effects and have the Nerazim replace it with Nerazim Resolve.
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Adrenal Glands (Ex): When making a full round attack, the zergling gets an extra attack at
its highest base attack, as if it possessed the speed enchantment.
Replace this text with "A zergling gains an extra attack on a full attack action, as per haste"
~~~~~~~
Baneling Morph (Ex): By spending a full minute doing full round actions, the Zergling
can morph itself into a green cocoon like state. This cocoon quickly fills with evolving fluid
that quickly changes its body into a Baneling. The Zergling loses its stat block and swaps
over to the Baneling stat block; though any ability damage, drain, hit point damage, and
status effects remain on it. It takes 4 hours to complete the metamorphosis.
Replace with the following, "A zergling may spend a minute transforming into a zerg egg. The zergling may take no other actions during this time. After 4 hours the egg hatches into a baneling."
They would heal status effects and the like. This is one of the benefits in game of morphing, you end up with a full hp unit afterwards.
~~~~~~~
Hydras should not have a burrow speed, but should have a speed increase on creep beyond the normal.
Their damage reduction is truly insane coupled with their fast healing for their CR.
I don't believe they should have any DR to be fair. Roaches possibly, hydras no.
Poisoned Spine (Ex):
The mention of bullets and such is confusing. Instead it should read "This attack is a ranged touch attack, and gains the hydralisk's strength modifier to damage"
Muscular Armaments (Ex):
Charging hydras being faster is a bit iffy. Instead have them gain a 10ft extra move speed on creep.
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Zerg queen should be much slower, slower than the hydra even, except on creep where she is the same speed.
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I think broodlings should be scarier, possibly a cr 1 or 2 creature if zerglings are cr3.
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Your roach is under cr'd again. Try imagine a level 3 or 4 party fighting that thing. They will DIE, almost guaranteed.
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If you respond on these I will take some time to read some more
Looks cool, I admit I have zero knowledge of StarCraft so it all went over my head. One thing, to get the Dark Templar favored class bonus (not the class itself) you need both the Nerazim and Tal'darim racial features. However, both replace low-light vision so you can only have one or the other.
AH HA! Caught it this time!
Okay so the main reason I gave the Protoss Resolve was mostly because I felt Protoss should be resistant more to enchantments in most cases. I think they're psionics would naturally give them more will power to resist such effects. And they themselves are a pretty brave race considering they'll charge straight into machine gun fire like it's their normal 9-5 work week. I felt Amon's control over them was the exception; not necessarily the rule (as it was basically trying to resist the power of the deity of the SC world).
One of the main reasons I gave most of the zerg damage reduction was the fact of how you fight them. Since people in power armor fight them and have trouble even still. I figured it probably takes alot to bring any one of them down, so I figured low ACs, but give them Damage Reduction. I tried following the charts for their stats to make sure they were around average, but I didn't have a chart to show how I should size up damage reduction. There was alot of guess work; but I thought (other than the DR) that I had gotten close to what I needed.
Any further input you give me is appreciated.
Looks cool, I admit I have zero knowledge of StarCraft so it all went over my head. One thing, to get the Dark Templar favored class bonus (not the class itself) you need both the Nerazim and Tal'darim racial features. However, both replace low-light vision so you can only have one or the other.
What I meant when I said that is you need to select the Nerazim or Tal'Darim alternate racial trait to be able to use the class. It didn't matter if the racial trait replaced what you had, as long as those were one of the racial traits you selected.
It's a lore thing for the game; which is what these sheets were trying to do.
I really love the fact, that you made Zerglings possible familiars.
The poisoned Spine attack seems a bit weak. In many cases the Hydralisk is better of to just start slashing in melee.
Have you checked the sizes? I always imagined some of the Zerg units to be bigger than you presented. Here is a size chart from the databook:
https://xiaorobear.deviantart.com/art/StarCraft-to-Scale-575265589
Dot
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{. . .} Have you checked the sizes? I always imagined some of the Zerg units to be bigger than you presented. Here is a size chart from the databook:
https://xiaorobear.deviantart.com/art/StarCraft-to-Scale-575265589
Linkified.
A lot of things in the documents need to be changed, but here is a random subset:
General:
- You might want to do this off Starfinder instead of Pathfinder.
- Some units (some creatures and some vehicles) can squeeze themselves into a space 1 size category smaller for transport (they cannot move or attack in this state) -- at least the following: Protoss Stalkers (note that Protoss Dragoons are less technologically advanced and DON'T have this ability), Terran Goliaths and Thors, and Zerg Lurkers and Ultralisks.
- From both Starcraft art and in-game unit cargo size (remember, being compared to Marines bulked up with Powered Armor), Protoss are Large (additional +4 RP).
- Zealot should be an archetype of DreamScarred Press Soulknife, which is just a hair off from being perfect for this role. (For this and following instances of DreamScarred Press classes, convert for Starfinder as needed.)
- Dark Templar should be a different archetype of DreamScarred Press Soulknife, that gets the whole Vital Strike feat chain as bonus feats. Alternatively, if you want them to have more magic, they should be an archetype of DreamScarred Press Psychic Warrior that adds the Soulknife's Soul Blade ability and the aforementioned Vital Strike feat chain, but using class level as effective Base Attack Bonus.
- High Templar should be an archetype of DreamScarred Press Psion. Also make the archetype applicable to DreamScarred Press Wilder, to represent the early Nerazim attempts at using Psionic powers without Khalai approval, that spiraled out of control and got them exiled from Aiur and nearly killed.
- Most and probably all Zerg shouldn't have Fire vulnerability -- remember that Fire weapons in Starcraft are just
that powerful.
- Zerg that become uncontrolled often lose their free will entirely, instead of just becoming feral.
- Most Zerg do not have a full Burrow speed; instead, they should get a limited Burrowing that only lets them move a short distance vertically. Infestors and Roaches get a full Burrow speed.
- First War Ultralisks are Gargantuan, but do not have the cleaving Kaiser Blades; as noted above, they can squeeze themselves into a Huge space for transport.
- Second War (post-BroodWar) Ultralisks are Colossal and have the cleaving Kaiser Blades; as noted above, they can squeeze themselves into a Gargantuan space for transport.
For DR examples look at golems of rough CR to match.
Also just for luls I want to do a damage check to see how long it takes to take down some of these creatures.
Zergling CR3:
AC 19
HP 26
DR 5/Adamantine
Fast Heal 2
This should be a tough fight for a Level 3 character on it's own.
Lets try a two handed barbarian optimized for damage.
STR = 24 with rage
To hit = +10(3 BAB +7 Str)
Damage = 2d6 + 10 + 3 = AVG of 20
AVG damage per round = ((20 - (19-10))/20)*(20-5) = 8.25 (this excludes crits) crit chance is 5% for (40-5) damage so 1.75 extra average from crit chance. So 10 damage a round.
(I could have included DR here wrong. If I include it after the normal averaging I get to 8 damage a round)
This zergling can take four rounds for our barbarian to take down with the fast healing.
Zegling has: 2 Claws +5 (1d3+1), Bite 0 (1d6+1) (That +5 makes no sense without a feat to use dex for attacks, which it really should have instead of dodge or fleet)
Lets give our Barb 36 HP and an AC of about 14
Zergling average damage is ((20 - (14-5))/20)*3*3 + ((20 - (14-0))/20)*4.5 = 6.3
3 Claws from adrenal glands
Hmmm. This zergling really does not do half as much damage as I expected.
Oh I missed that it has rage, lets include that. 2 Claws +5+2 (1d3+1+2), Bite +2 (1d6+1+2)
Zergling With Rage average damage is ((20 - (14-7))/20)*5*3 + ((20 - (14-2))/20)*6.5 = 12.35
This Zergling can semi reliably kill a raging barbarian whose sole shtick is to not die and hit things hard.
If we put this zergling up against most other things we could see a dead player even quicker.
A more reasonable 18 STR fighter, with two handed:
To hit = 8
Damage = 2d6 + 6 + 3 = 16
Average ((20 - (19-8))/20)*(16-5) + 0.05*(32-5)= 5.4 Damage including crits, lets round to 6
Turn 1: 26-6+2 = 22
Turn 2: 22-6+2 = 18
3: 14
4: 10
5: 6
6: 2
7: Dead
During this the zergling could easily do upwards of 30 ish damage which could kill the character.
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TLDR
This zergling takes forever to kill, and while raging can dish out a huge amount of damage
Lets try this for the Roach.
I just want to point out that if you play the roach with a modicum of intelligence it WILL kill a party that cannot kill it the first turn.
Lets take our barb again.
To hit +12/+5
Damage = 2d6 + 10 + 6 = 23
Average = ((20 - (20-12))/20)*(23-10) + 0.05*((20 - (20-12))/20)*(46-10) + ((20 - (20-5))/20)*(23-10) + 0.05*((20 - (20-5))/20)*(46-10)
Average = 12.58 round to 13
Turn 1 = 56 - 13 + 2 = 45
2: 34
3: 23
4: 12
5: 1
6: Dead
In return against our now 60 HP barb at ac 14:
The roach kites, hitting the barb's touch AC for 5d6 damage, Dealing 17.5 damage a turn. this meand 4 or 5 rounds to kill our Barb.
Add in the fact that this roach can burrow and heal to full in 8 rounds, and then resurface and start the whole fight again.
This thing will kill entire parties
If DR is taken out of the equation, how does our friend barbarian fare then?
A lot of things in the documents need to be changed, but here is a random subset:
General:
Protoss:[list]
- You might want to do this off Starfinder instead of Pathfinder.
- Some units (some creatures and some vehicles) can squeeze themselves into a space 1 size category smaller for transport (they cannot move or attack in this state) -- at least the following: Protoss Stalkers (note that Protoss Dragoons are less technologically advanced and DON'T have this ability), Terran Goliaths and Thors, and Zerg Lurkers and Ultralisks.
From both Starcraft art and in-game unit cargo size (remember, being compared to Marines bulked up with Powered Armor), Protoss are Large (additional +4 RP).
Zealot should be an archetype of DreamScarred Press Soulknife, which is just a hair off from being perfect for this role. (For this and following instances of DreamScarred Press classes, convert for Starfinder as needed.)
Dark Templar should be a different archetype of DreamScarred Press Soulknife, that gets the whole Vital Strike feat chain as bonus feats. Alternatively, if you want them to have more magic, they should be an archetype of DreamScarred Press Psychic Warrior that adds the Soulknife's Soul Blade ability and the aforementioned Vital Strike feat chain, but using class level as effective Base Attack Bonus.
High Templar should be an archetype of DreamScarred Press Psion. Also make the archetype applicable to DreamScarred Press Wilder, to represent the early Nerazim attempts at using Psionic powers without Khalai approval, that spiraled out of control and got them exiled from Aiur and nearly killed.
When I made the Protoss, I did not make them with any psionics in mind; and just stuck to everything available on the Pathfinder PRD. While it would be fitting, psionics have always since my 3.5 days have been the most complex system I have seen.
Not owning any of those books also probably was a factor too.
Without DR:
Zergling:
((20 - (19-10))/20)*(20) + 0.05*((20 - (19-10))/20)*(40)
=12.1
Here the DR does not actually make the world of difference. This is mostly due to the very high damage from the barbarian suffering less than another build.
Roach:
((20 - (20-12))/20)*(23) + 0.05*((20 - (20-12))/20)*(46) + ((20 - (20-5))/20)*(23) + 0.05*((20 - (20-5))/20)*(46)
= 21.505
This is a big difference
1: 56-22+2=36
2: 16
3: Dead
Here the roach dies 3 rounds earlier, making it a bit more realistic.
I would be tempted to actually give the roach a bunch more health, but add a delay to it's 7 fast heal while burrowed.
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I Suppose my biggest issue with the DR is that the zerg have always been the squishiest of the races, with only a few units being properly tough. Ultra's, Roaches, and Aberrations.
If you give all the zerg DR you can't make these guys stand out with their toughness.
I also feel that fast heal might not be the best representation of Zerg regeneration.
I would possibly create a trait like fast heal, called zerg regeneration, that only activates after a minute of no damage, or after being burrowed for 1 round for the roach.
This allows them to perform hit and run tactics effectively, which has always been a useful tool for the zerg.
Ultra
Again I feel under cr'd for the pure face wrecking this thing can do.
You have miscalculated the BAB, it should be 15, not 12.
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Ultralisk Feats:
Awesome Blow - Not a legal Feat, Missing improved bullrush
Defensive Combat Training - There are so many more fun things you could do with slot instead of this.
Diehard - Not legal, missing Endurance. Also, get something more fun here.
Improved Natural Attack - Improved natural attack needs to be applied to a specific attack, which is this applied to?
Improved Overrun - Instead of this I would suggest giving the ultralisk a trample attack.
I Strongly suggest powerful charge as a special attack
Improved Sunder - Makes sense, but if we want to go sunder we need to go further, take the feats that let you apply sunder damage to the wielder as well.
Improved Unarmed Strike - Why?
Multi Attack - Again, Why?
Power Attack - Makes sense.
Reckless Rage - Good.
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Oh, also lore says that Ultras now have 4 kaiser blades as the norm, they should as such have 4 claws then, rather than just 2.
I Actually feel a really fun way to do this is with the Totemic Initiate feat for Beast Totem
Reworked:
Power Attack
Reckless Rage
Improved Natural Attack (Claws)
Improved Sunder
Greater Sunder
Athletic
Totemic Initiate (Beast Totem)
Totemic Disciple (Beast Totem)
Totemic Master (Beast Totem)
You even have a feat left.
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In terms of how this thing should be cr'd, with my changes
5 attacks with pounce at +28
15 bab + 13 str + 2 charge - 5 power attack and reckless rage = +25
Or If we want to do sunder and abuse that side of things:
CMB +25
Attack routine with rage, PA, and all
Bite: +25+2 (2d8+13+10+2)
Claws x 4: +25+2 (3d6+13+10+2)
While raging HP goes from 240 to 280.
Powerful charge helps increase first attack damage on the charge.
If we do a charge pounce sunder:
Our Sunder CMB = +29
Our Damage is:
Bite: +29+2 (2d8+13+10+2+13+2)
Claws x 4: +29+2 (3d6+13+10+2+13+2)
As our attacks are resolved as adamantine we ignore hardness 19 and less.
CMD does not scale half as well as AC, so we are almost auto hitting these.
Our damage routine avg is: 2d8+40 + 4 x 3d6+40 = 49 + 202 = 251
This is to an item, and we get to make attacks against all opponents within 10ft of our target, which in most cases will be another 3 or 4 people.
So we are looking at 1000 damage to items a turn.
Even if we are looking at say +10 equivalent weapons we are destroying them in a single attack routine.
With this HP and Damage this is squarely in CR 17 or 18 territory.
It has low AC but makes up for that with DR 15 that cannot be negated with ex abilities like cluster shots.
I Would be confident doubling this things HP to around 400 and calling it CR 20.
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I Realise the above does not quite match your origional design, but it seems to match your fluff much more. And the fluff of the ultra in general.
"You can unload a C-14 at an ultralisk until the barrel melts, and you'll only make it mad. Correction: madder. They're already mad."
"They're called kaiser blades; I don't know why, but I've seen what they can do. They sweep through marine battle armor like it's tinfoil."
"Ultralisks attack using large, bone-like scythes which protrude from their backs. Known as "kaiser blades", these scythes are nearly indestructible.[2] Possessing monomolecular edges,[5] these scythes are able to tear through most substances with ease."
The ultra I have designed for you is a truly terrifying force in melee, as it should be, as the pinnacle of Zerg melee evolution.
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I would like your feedback on this so I know if rethinking the design of the units is something you are happy to do.
If you are willing I will suggest we find some method to actually communicate (Skype or Discord) and we can go through all the units
Brood Lord has the wrong fluff text
How does it swim at 100 ft and I don't feel it should have perfect fly?
It should also fly slower I feel
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Hey it's nice to get some feedback for once though. It's fine...this would save someone else the hard work if they wanted to make Zerg and Protoss as monsters for Pathfinder. I never got feedback when I made these so I just went "Alright, well I guess everyone is alright with these." I paid attention to the charts as best I could, but it's always nice to have someone else look at them.
Anyway you're in luck. I got Discord recently because I wanted to join a Dark Souls PvP community (Yomi it is called). If you want to raise on my Discord it's RaynorsRaider#9684 (ironic enough).
Where are you based so I know when to try and make contact with you.
I am CAT
I think the CR14 is a neater fit for an ultralisk than CR20. It fits the purview of a CR14 better, as a CR14 can slaughter armies on its own, demolish vehicles in short time, and eventually succumb to damage from a prolonged fight being out numbered. Creatures around CR20 are entering near deity territory and are really just more impressive in general compared to what an Ultralisk is capable of, in both Pathfinder and Starfinder.
It can be deisgned for cr 14. I just feel that what we have in the pdf is much closer to 17/18 rather than 14, so it is easier to fluff the fluff and make it better at certain things to get to CR 20
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I think the CR14 is a neater fit for an ultralisk than CR20. It fits the purview of a CR14 better, as a CR14 can slaughter armies on its own, demolish vehicles in short time, and eventually succumb to damage from a prolonged fight being out numbered. Creatures around CR20 are entering near deity territory and are really just more impressive in general compared to what an Ultralisk is capable of, in both Pathfinder and Starfinder.
It's one of the reasons I did not make the Ultralisk a CR 20. They're like a dime a dozen compared to Gods in Pathfinder or Godlike creatures.
An Ultralisk itself might be godlike compared to guys in full plate with swords and spears, but certainly not like the Tarrasque.
Oh god...infested Tarrasque...
^Torrasque.
^Torrasque.
Torrasque; sorry...very reliant on spellcheck I am.