If I am Good aligned and wielding a weapon with the Unholy special ability, and I pass the DC 30 Use Magic Device check to emulate the Evil alignment for the weapon, do I get a negative level while wielding it or not?
(Same goes for the opposite, and evil person wielding a holy weapon)
I am looking for a RaW answer if there is one.
I am not interested in discussing anything related to whether or not the character shifts alignment over this.
Bonus Question: If the character is under the effect of magic that prevents detecting it's alignment, can a magic weapon tell what alignment the user is in order to give or rescind such negative levels?
Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
IMHO, you are in an area that is not spelled out as such in the rules, aside from the most direct and literal reading of the power in question.
As a DM, I would interpret the description of the Unholy weapon property exactly as written: there is "no way" to avoid the negative level penalty. "Not... in any way" is meant to include all the ways you can possibly imagine - including emulating a different alignment with UMD.
PRD wrote: It bestows one permanent negative level on any good creature attempting to wield it. The negative level remains as long as the weapon is in hand and disappears when the weapon is no longer wielded. This negative level cannot be overcome in any way (including restoration spells) while the weapon is wielded.
havok101 wrote: If I am Good aligned and wielding a weapon with the Unholy special ability, and I pass the DC 30 Use Magic Device check to emulate the Evil alignment for the weapon, do I get a negative level while wielding it or not? Use Magic Device wrote: Emulate an Alignment: Some magic items have positive or negative effects based on the user’s alignment. Use Magic Device lets you use these items as if you were of an alignment of your choice. Assuming an actually evil person wouldn't lose levels when using this particular weapon, then no; you have successfully "hacked" or tricked the device into doing what you want without deleterious effects. -- Such being the entire point of learning this skill in the first place. (And why it is awesome sauce.)
havok101 wrote: If I am Good aligned and wielding a weapon with the Unholy special ability, and I pass the DC 30 Use Magic Device check to emulate the Evil alignment for the weapon, do I get a negative level while wielding it or not?
(Same goes for the opposite, and evil person wielding a holy weapon)
I am looking for a RaW answer if there is one.
I am not interested in discussing anything related to whether or not the character shifts alignment over this.
Strictly RAW, yes, this is one application of Use Magic Device. You should be able to use UMD to "change your alignment" for the purposes of activating a specific magical device. That would allow you to hold an unholy weapon without penalty.
There's no listed duration here, but the magic weapon's effect applies each time you grab it, so it would within the skill's use for the GM to require a new UMD check each time you grap the unholy weapon. And recall that rolling a natural 1 to activate a magic item means that you can't activate it and can't try again for 24 hours. As I read it, your magic hack fails so bad you can't even use the unholy weapon at all (couldn't draw it, or perhaps couldn't pick it up at all).
Additionally, most, if not all, GOOD deities will not approve of any of their followers wielding unholy weapons. UMD doesn't matter here, the Gods know what you hold. Other good characters should be wary, if not hostile, towards characters wielding unholy weapons.
havok101 wrote: Bonus Question: If the character is under the effect of magic that prevents detecting it's alignment, can a magic weapon tell what alignment the user is in order to give or rescind such negative levels? My understanding is that the weapon's ability to determine your alignment as per unholy/holy weapon is unrelated to the Detect alignments spells.
Think of this way, if a sword is burning hot, but I cast an illusion on it to make it look normal, and you pick it up, yes it's still burning hot. Sure, it may not detect as burning hot when you observe it, but when you pick it up you will be burning your hand.
The only ways to make a holy weapon think you are good is to either "be good" or to use UMD to make it think you are good.
Pax Miles wrote: There's no listed duration here, but the magic weapon's effect applies each time you grab it, so it would within the skill's use for the GM to require a new UMD check each time you grap the unholy weapon. And recall that rolling a natural 1 to activate a magic item means that you can't activate it and can't try again for 24 hours. As I read it, your magic hack fails so bad you can't even use the unholy weapon at all (couldn't draw it, or perhaps couldn't pick it up at all). A couple things about the quoted section:
1) As per the rules, "If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour." I would not personally read that as "once per hour or until you put it down, whichever comes first."
2) A natural 1 is NOT an automatic failure. The rules say "...natural 1 while attempting to activate an item and you fail..." It doesn't say "then you fail", so you have to refer back to the normal rules for skills, which don't have the fumble mechanic of attacks/saves.
For the record I agree that you can use UMD to trick the weapon into believing you to be of a different alignment. That seems like exactly the point of the "emulate alignment" check given. I'm slightly more iffy about allowing the same check against an opponent's Unholy weapon.
shaventalz wrote: A couple things about the quoted section:
1) As per the rules, "If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour." I would not personally read that as "once per hour or until you put it down, whichever comes first."
2) A natural 1 is NOT an automatic failure. The rules say "...natural 1 while attempting to activate an item and you fail..." It doesn't say "then you fail", so you have to refer back to the normal rules for skills, which don't have the fumble mechanic of attacks/saves.
For the record I agree that you can use UMD to trick the weapon into believing you to be of a different alignment. That seems like exactly the point of the "emulate alignment" check given. I'm slightly more iffy about allowing the same check against an opponent's Unholy weapon.
I suppose if they try wielding a magic weapon for more than an hour, you'd need another check. I would regard wielding a magic weapon to count as activating a magic item.
Ah, I see your point. Yes, natural 1 AND failure. I had missed that, thank you.
Regarding use of an Opponent's magic weapon, no, you can't use UMD like this. Actual Identification of the magic item is required for most useage of UMD. This is not something that merely glancing at the weapon will determine in combat. A +1 Holy Sword looks like a Sword in combat. You might be able to make an educated guess that it's glow is because it's magic, but that doesn't mean you've IDed it.
You could Activate Blindly and also emulate an alignment, I suppose. Dangerous in Combat, but I suppose it could be done.
You could also, I suppose, have studied the opponent's weapon outside of combat.
I will note, though, I think a Good Aligned Character will have issues wielding an Evil weapon for long periods of time. Even just knowing that such an evil blade is in their possession should deeply bother them. Might not automatically lower their alignment, but I would definitely scrutize their actions more if they were doing this - they are inviting the GM to find an excuse to lower their alignment.
The negative level that a good person get for wielding a Unholy sword is unrelated to his ability to use it.
A good person can use a Unholy weapon, the weapon doesn't have a "only a evil person can use this item" requirement.
Read the first row of the UMD check effects:
PRD wrote: Check: You can use this skill to read a spell or to activate a magic item. Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment. The check affect only your ability to use a item, not how the item work.
If you are a good fighter and use UMD to cast Unholy Blight from a wand, it work, but that don't change the damage you take if you are in the area of effect of the spell.
Same for the unholy weapon. You are able to use it. But you affected by the weapon normally and one of the effects is to suffer a negative level if you wield it and you are good.
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