Psychic Amplification : "Will of the dead" and the spell "sleep"

[Captain Blackdeer]

Hi guys,
I'm currently running "Carrion Crown" and I'm having trouble with my team for some point of rule.

It's about a phrenic amplification and a spell : Psychics can add a certain power to a spell which does this effect :

Quote:

Will of the Dead (Su): Even undead creatures can be affected by the psychic’s mind-affecting spells. The psychic can spend 2 points from her phrenic pool to overcome an undead creature’s immunity to mind-affecting effects for the purposes of the linked spell. This ability functions even on mindless undead, but has no effect on creatures that aren’t undead. This amplification can be linked only to spells that have the mind-affecting descriptor.

However, sleep can only be used on living creatures (as specifically written twice in the description of the spell), and undead creatures are said immune to "mind affecting effects" AND sleep.

Psychic player argues that his power would allow him to ignore the target specificity and sleep immunity since it bypasses the mind-affecting immunity and since it would be magical sleep and not physical sleep. I argue it wouldn't.
What do you guys think about it ? Is there any certain rule that would clarify this ?

[Grumpus]

"Will of the Dead" only allows you to get around the mind-affecting restriction of targeting undead. If there is a further restriction on the spell (such as having to be a living creature) , then Will of the dead doesn't help get around that, seems simple to me.

[Captain Blackdeer]

Grumpus wrote:

"Will of the Dead" only allows you to get around the mind-affecting restriction of targeting undead. If there is a further restriction on the spell (such as having to be a living creature) , then Will of the dead doesn't help get around that, seems simple to me.

So was it to me, but my players wouldn't understand it and I wanted the advice of other dms to take a decision ^^

[2bz2p]

I see the player's POV on this. Most of the typical compulsion mind affect spells target "living creature" or "Humanoid"; charm monster, Charm person, Command, Hold Person, Dominate Person, Insanity, etc. If the target is not superseded by this ability, what good is it? Mindless Undead are neither living nor humanoid and all these spells that do not affect them would, in large order, continue to not effect them.

The immunity stems from the Mindless Undead being mindless, and other Undead from not being alive. If these targeting rules are overruling the "Will of the Dead" ability - what could you use with "will of the dead" on Mindless Undead?

[QuidEst]

You would need to use Charm Monster, Hold Monster, Dominate Monster, etc.

[2bz2p]

QuidEst wrote:

You would need to use Charm Monster, Hold Monster, Dominate Monster, etc.

All of these spells likewise target a Living Creature. The argument for use remains the same, does "Will of the Dead" change the target to include undead?

[Grumpus]

2bz2p wrote:

I see the player's POV on this. Most of the typical compulsion mind affect spells target "living creature" or "Humanoid"; charm monster, Charm person, Command, Hold Person, Dominate Person, Insanity, etc. If the target is not superseded by this ability, what good is it? Mindless Undead are neither living nor humanoid and all these spells that do not affect them would, in large order, continue to not effect them.

The immunity stems from the Mindless Undead being mindless, and other Undead from not being alive. If these targeting rules are overruling the "Will of the Dead" ability - what could you use with "will of the dead" on Mindless Undead?

The Psychic gets a lot of mind-effecting spells that do not specify that targets need to be living creatures.

When I played my Psychic up to level 14, I got a lot of usage out of will of the dead. And I did not feel constrained by the limitations.

Some useful spells to use: Mind Thrust (1-6), Ego Whip, Id Insinuation, confusion and more.

[2bz2p]

Grumpus wrote:

2bz2p wrote:

I see the player's POV on this. Most of the typical compulsion mind affect spells target "living creature" or "Humanoid"; charm monster, Charm person, Command, Hold Person, Dominate Person, Insanity, etc. If the target is not superseded by this ability, what good is it? Mindless Undead are neither living nor humanoid and all these spells that do not affect them would, in large order, continue to not effect them.

The immunity stems from the Mindless Undead being mindless, and other Undead from not being alive. If these targeting rules are overruling the "Will of the Dead" ability - what could you use with "will of the dead" on Mindless Undead?

The Psychic gets a lot of mind-effecting spells that do not specify that targets need to be living creatures.

When I played my Psychic up to level 14, I got a lot of usage out of will of the dead. And I did not feel constrained by the limitations.

Some useful spells to use: Mind Thrust (1-6), Ego Whip, Id Insinuation, confusion and more.

Then I think you have a ruling! What spells would Will of the Dead benefit outside the Occult rulebook?

[Captain Blackdeer]

2bz2p wrote:

I see the player's POV on this. Most of the typical compulsion mind affect spells target "living creature" or "Humanoid"; charm monster, Charm person, Command, Hold Person, Dominate Person, Insanity, etc. If the target is not superseded by this ability, what good is it? Mindless Undead are neither living nor humanoid and all these spells that do not affect them would, in large order, continue to not effect them.

The immunity stems from the Mindless Undead being mindless, and other Undead from not being alive. If these targeting rules are overruling the "Will of the Dead" ability - what could you use with "will of the dead" on Mindless Undead?

Mind thrust, mind link, Daze, Cause fear, Lock gaze, Déjà vu... there are countless possibilities ^^

[Weirdo]

As a permissive GM I might allow the player to ignore the "living creature" target restriction on spells like Charm Monster. Undead and constructs (the non-living creature types) both have immunity to mind-affecting effects, so it's possible that the "living creature" targeting restriction is simply a redundancy.

EDIT: Interestingly, while Confusion works on "all creatures in a 15ft burst," Lesser Confusion works on "one living creature." Both spells are from the CRB.

I would not allow the player to ignore the separate specific immunity to sleep effects.