0 Wisdom Will Saves

[Scamperbaby]

If a creature has Wisdom drain to the point where it has 0 Wisdom, they are "Incapable of rational thought and unconscious". The table on d20pfsrd has a dash for 0 wisdom. This table is a collection of official information, except for some of the description column, but I haven't been able to find where in the rules that it states "0 wisdom: -". I believe there isn't such a place in the rulebook and that is why it is a dash in the table.

The reason why the dash is important is because another player is claiming that means a creature doesn't get a will save if a spell is cast on it, that it auto fails the save. I don't believe that is true and that instead you would take a -6 to your save. Anyone have any official rulings on the matter?

[Matthew Downie]

From Conditions:

Quote:

A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier).

So you can still roll with a zero.

The linked tables are not official rules. I'm not sure why they show a -6 for zero Dexterity - the "Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells" table doesn't.

[Claxon]

An ability score of zero is treated as a -5 penalty on things it applies to. You always get saves, even when it makes little sense to do so. An unconscious creature still gets a reflex save against a fireball.

[Rub-Eta]

This other player is wrong on multiple levels.

First of all, d20pfsrd is not a rule source. The d20 is know to not be accurate. Always double check with other sources. In this case, it even states that the table is not part of the official rules (the CRB does not include said table and therefor is not official Pathfinder rules).

Second; there is nothing in the rules stating that someone needs to be capable of thought or have a higher wisdom score than 0 to throw a will save. Being unconscious and helpless does not disallow you to make a saving throw.

An ability score of 0 grants a -5 modifier. The formula is (Ability Score - 10)/2 rounded down.

[2bz2p]

Some help on this is found in the Nightmare spell, which specifically requires the target to be asleep (helpless, essentially) but still allows a will save.

The idea of saves when Helpless is a big change from the original AD&D rules, when you had to have space to escape or cover to minimize the effects of physical spells like Fireball. There were many situation where there was "no save" because of environment. Now you always get a save.

Keep in mind a helpless creature cannot benefit from Evasion or Improved Evasion for physical spells, but still gets a save for half damage as normal if one is allowed (albeit with -5). In the case of an ability score like Wisdom, which makes you unconscious at zero, you dexterity and strength effectively become zero as well.

[Scamperbaby]

Thanks everyone!