Some Grappler Clarification

[Magdalyn Varus]

1. Do Armor Spikes deal their extra damage on the grapple check initiate a grapple, to damage during a grapple, or both?

2. The Strangler Archetype for Brawler deals scaling 1d6 sneak attack damage when you maintain a grapple to deal damage. Does this qualify it for the Strangler feat, which requires 1d6 Sneak Attack (but not the Sneak Attack class feature)?

3. The Dan Bong is a weapon with the Grappling feature. That means this could be used as a weapon to grapple, and therefor use the Heirloom Weapon (Combat Maneuver) Bonus, correct?

4. Related to the last question, Heirloom Weapon gives a trait bonus to combat maneuver checks. Bred for War gives a trait bonus to CMB. In such a case would these stack, since the bonuses are going to separate places?

5. If Armor Spikes are enchanted, do they deal their additional Enhancement damage on each grapple check? If I had Spiked Armor +3 would it add 1d6+3+STR to each check? It's listed on the weapons table, and even directs you there for its damage in the description, so it seems to deal damage like any other light weapon.

6. As Dan Bong are grappling weapons, could I use their damage and Enhancement Bonus as well?

Sorry for all the questions, just want to be crystal clear on the rules before I make anything.

[Chess Pwn]

If I remember right the answers are
1) nobody knows how this works
2) yes
3) maybe, but you take the penalty for not having two hands free
4) trait bonuses don't stack if they end up being on the same roll
5) yes
6) yes

[Magdalyn Varus]

Chess Pwn wrote:

3) maybe, but you take the penalty for not having two hands free

That would be why I want Heirloom, Dan Bong have a built in untyped +2 to Grapple, with Heirloom it would be +4 and cancel out the penalty. The idea is a guard with a baton sort of thing.

[Magdalyn Varus]

Magdalyn Varus wrote:

Chess Pwn wrote:

3) maybe, but you take the penalty for not having two hands free

That would be why I want Heirloom, Dan Bong have a built in untyped +2 to Grapple, with Heirloom it would be +4 and cancel out the penalty. The idea is a guard with a baton sort of thing.

Dan Bong is exotic, never mind on that.

[Ferious Thune]

2) For some reason I thought this didn’t work, but looking at the prereqs Chess Pwn may be correct. How does it work in practical terms? Strangler Brawlers deal their sneak attack damage automatically when they maintain to damage. Would they deal it a second time if they spend a swift action?

[Magdalyn Varus]

You'd spend your standard action to maintain your grapple, deal the damage and sneak attack damage, then spend the swift action to deal your sneak attack damage. That's my interpretation at least.

[Ferious Thune]

I guess it might be worth taking at low levels. At higher levels (9th on), a Strangler will want Rapid Grappler. So I’d plan on either retraining the Strangler feat then or only picking it up with Martial Flexibility.

[Selvaxri]

Brawlers are proficient with "close weapons" of which Dan Bongs are classified as.

Be warned, i opened a can of worms with the "Strangler w/Strangler debate, and there are even more threads about that interaction.

The consensus i drew out of that entire thread is-
Strangler (archetype) just adds some bonus damage while grappling [with the specification of damage type when it's applicable], but IS NOT the Sneak Attack class feature.
Strangler (feat) just allows you to use any Sneak Attack damage during a grapple.

Mind you, that is how I choose to interpret how those features interact after reading the debate; and is not, by any means, an official ruling.

[Perfect Tommy]

1. read the kraken line of feats, I think it will aid you in making a determination on this point.
3. Grappling style will remove the -4 penalty for not having a hand free. And there are diverse ways to get weapon proficiency for free. Including human military tradition.
4. I agree they don't stack, but the pawns wording was imprecise.

[Magdalyn Varus]

Selvaxri wrote:

Brawlers are proficient with "close weapons" of which Dan Bongs are classified as.

Be warned, i opened a can of worms with the "Strangler w/Strangler debate, and there are even more threads about that interaction.

The consensus i drew out of that entire thread is-
Strangler (archetype) just adds some bonus damage while grappling [with the specification of damage type when it's applicable], but IS NOT the Sneak Attack class feature.
Strangler (feat) just allows you to use any Sneak Attack damage during a grapple.

Mind you, that is how I choose to interpret how those features interact after reading the debate; and is not, by any means, an official ruling.

It's not that I'm not proficient with Dan Bong, it's Heirloom specifically calls out Simple or Martial Weapon, of which Dan Bong is not.

I intend to use the Snapping Turtle Style for Snapping Turtle Clutch.

And I agree that the sneak attack from Strangle isn't the sneak attack class feature, it's the Strangle class feature. So for a feat such as "Knockout Artist" which has the requirement of "Sneak Attack class feature" it wouldn't qualify, as I have the Strangle class feature. The Strangler feat however requires a "+1d6 sneak attack" which I do have. The fact that it's specifically called out as +1d6 sneak attack damage should mean I have +1d6 sneak attack.

My interpretation thus far has been that, as the Strangler feat says, once I deal damage with my grapple I may spend a swift action to deal my sneak attack damage. I don't believe the fact that I've inflicted sneak attack damage once stops me from doing so again, once on my Standard Action and once on my Swift. I could be mistaken though.

[Magdalyn Varus]

Reading some of that thread, while I certainly still think Strangler qualifies for Strangler, I do think that because the trigger for Strangler is "when you maintain a grapple to deal damage," which is the same as what normally uses your sneak attack damage, you would be applying the 1d6 twice to the same grapple action, which isn't allowed.

Shame that.