sap master

[rabbedrabit]

so im thinking of building a non leathel rogue.
sap master states the target needs to be flat footed. not just denied its dex bonus like sneak attack.
besides not acting in the first round of combat are there any other ways to make a target flat footed?
thanks

[Avoron]

Yep! The most useful method is probably to force your enemies to make acrobatics checks to cross slippery or uneven ground, because

Acrobatics wrote:

While you are using Acrobatics in this way, you are considered flat-footed and lose your Dexterity bonus to your AC (if any).

So all you need to do is get the party caster to toss out a grease or a sleet storm, and you're free to start sapping away on anyone who tries to move.

[Fuzzy-Wuzzy]

You can take Dazzling Display and Shatter Defenses, especially if you also have other ways to make people shaken.

[MageHunter]

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

You can take Dazzling Display and Shatter Defenses, especially if you also have other ways to make people shaken.

If you're using a sap anyways enforcer is a great feat for this.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

rabbedrabit wrote:

so im thinking of building a non leathel rogue.

sap master states the target needs to be flat footed. not just denied its dex bonus like sneak attack.
besides not acting in the first round of combat are there any other ways to make a target flat footed?
thanks

Shameless Self-plugging

More seriously, I've theorycrafted that the best non-lethal "Rogue" build doesn't go the full 20 levels of Rogue, and doesn't use a Sap, but instead uses an Unarmed Strike.

Granted, it's viable (now) to use other weapons, thanks to the Adventurer's Armory 2 book with Weapon Modifications permitting any weapon to be made non-lethal (but costs a feat unless you have blanket proficiencies), but the guide I made above was written before this was possible, and even then I still think the Unarmed Strike options outweigh the ability to use a weapon.

[rabbedrabit]

MageHunter wrote:

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

You can take Dazzling Display and Shatter Defenses, especially if you also have other ways to make people shaken.

If you're using a sap anyways enforcer is a great feat for this.

actually was thinking of taking the feat that turns blunt weapons into non leathel damage

[rabbedrabit]

thanks for the advice.
the build i think im going to use is take empty handed monk and rogue.
havent flushed it out yet but empty handed monk treats all weapons as blunt. take the feat that turns blunt weapons into non leathel damage.
when the empty handed monk attacks an unarmed apponent that target is flat footed.
so ill have to boost disarm and do it without a weapon at a -4 to "steal" there weapon and beat them with it.
yes i know its really nich but thats fine it will be fun when it works

[rabbedrabit]

rabbedrabit wrote:

when the empty handed monk attacks an unarmed apponent that target is flat footed.

sorry correction. its not empty handed monk that gives this but improved improvisesed weapon. maybe lol i forget right now need to flush this out i guess.