I've been resident God for my group for the last 3 years, and I finally am getting a break, and thus I get to play my own character.
We're currently lvl 5, and I'm running a human Eldritch Archer as of right now.
[lvl 1] PBS; Precise Shot
[lvl 3] Rime Spell
[lvl 5] Heighten Spell, Preferred Spell (Snowball)
I'm tring to figure out exactly what the best way to progress is. I currently have an Opalecent White Pyramid in a Wayfinder, so technically I currently also have the Weapon Focus feat, and I'll be able to enhance my weapon on my own via the rules for Arcane Bond, the first things I'm spending money on are Seeking and Adaptive.
For feats, I'll most likely go the standard route of specializing in Snowball, and never preparing it; instead preparing more utility spells and other useful combat spells. I am uncertain as to whether it is worth it to Prestige out, and to take Favored Prestige Class and Prestigious Spellcaster. I was looking at a 2 level dip in Arcane Archer, to get full BAB, a couple class skills, and Imbue Arrows (to skip the Magus Arcana for them) then filling out the rest with Eldritch Knight 8 for full BAB and fighter progression to 13.
Feats that are on my short list of things to get: Elemental Spell (works great thanks to my traits) and Intensified Spell (because duh), Arcane Strike, Clustered Shots, and possibly Point Blank Master. Rapid Shot may be overkill. I am using Arcane Accuracy currently, and since I'm the primary arcane caster (we also have a bard who may not last long) I am going to be using Spell Blending to nab some utility spells. We are planning on taking the campaign to level 20, so eventually Quicken Spell and Spell Perfection are going to be on that list. Depending on how nice my DM is, I may get to avoid using the errata on Snowball so Spell Penetration may not be necessary, tbd. Having the ability to nab the fighter feats for better hit/damage may be worth it, especially considering I don't really care about the magus arcana (especially if I take the AA dip) but I do care about hitting and damage given the climate of the game.
CHEESE ALERT:
I'm just not sure if it's worth losing the one level of spellcasting to get those class skills and skip 2 magus arcana that I otherwise would not miss. I would most likely prestige out at 8 for 2 levels, then go back into Eldritch Archer for 2 levels to get fighter training, then finish out as Eldritch Knight with Prestiguous Spellcaster for the one level of spellcasting. I also really wanna keep that favored class bonus, and since Arcane Archer gives 4+ skills per level, I would not miss those skill points there.
There's also lots and lots of book keeping, including many different golfbags of arrows with various damage types and utility, as well as a plethora of different useful utility items. I'm the group treasurer and Batman.
A maguses arcane pool is their full BAB, more or less. You don't gain anything much by multiclassing as a full BAB class if it doesn't advance the arcane pool. You'd miss out on improved spell recall too. It doesn't sound like such a great idea to me.
Is it really more important than better skill progression and skipping the arcana?
I'm not sure the economy of the game really needs me to have more than 10 levels of arcane pool, I'd really only use it to cycle the snowball trick, and on arcane accuracy. I also like getting feats sooner by going EK.
Sell me on going full class. What all am I really missing?
Arcane pool has a cap on the enhancement bonus it can give a weapon. Assuming you have a +1 bow that bonus effectively caps out at level 13. Which covers the difference between full and 3/4 BAB from level 10 until level 16; you don't actually gain attack bonus from getting full BAB instead until level 17. IMO there are enough fun +X equivalent properties that you lose fun and flexibility by going for more BAB/basic enhancement bonus included in the weapon instead.
Improved spell recall is great for being Batman, it's an arcane bond you can use multiple times a day.
At 11th level, the magus's ability to recall spells using his arcane pool becomes more efficient. Whenever he recalls a spell with spell recall, he expends a number of points from his arcane pool equal to 1/2 the spell's level (minimum 1). Furthermore, instead of recalling a used spell, as a swift action the magus can prepare a spell of the same level that he has in his spellbook. He does so by expending a number of points from his arcane pool equal to the spell's level (minimum 1). The magus cannot apply metamagic feats to a spell prepared in this way. The magus does not need to reference his spellbook to prepare a spell in this way.
There's a bunch of good archery feats around BAB +6 but those later are spread out a bit anyway, unless you really want staggering/stunning critical (with a weapon that won't get better than a 19-20 crit range) I don't see how full BAB will help all that much.
I don't understand what you're saying about skipping arcana. How is not getting magus arcana an advantage?
Getting one more skill point/level (after losing the FCB) is... nice but hardly decisive I'd have thought.
Imbue Arrows does everything the two Magus Arcana for spellstrike do, but without incurring a -2. It's the way spell combat used to work before the Magus class came around. I can have all that. I do like the access to my book at 11th. I'm already planning on going at least 10. But the archery enhancements aren't that great from Arcane Pool. It's something else to consider.
Imbue arrows is a quite distinct trick from spellstrike or spell combat. It fires only one arrow, works only with area spells and attaches the spell area to the arrow. With spell combat alone you can cast any spell & make a full attack (at -2), but they don't interact unless the spell is a buff or debuff. Spell combat + ranged/distant spellstrike works only with ranged attack or ranged touch attack spells (until 16th level magus, anyway), includes a full attack and attaches one ray/missile to each arrow. I wouldn't try to substitute imbue arrows for the other but getting both via a 2-level dip sounds fun. Going for eldritch knight seems less attractive though.
You can do both. It's the same, the arrow is fired as part of the casting, it uses it's normal casting time, i.e. it's time isn't affected so I can use it just like spellstrike.
I can use area affects with the range of my arrows, which normally takes 2 arcana, or 6 levels worth of character. I'm not sure those 3 arcana points are more valuable to me over the rest of my benefits. Caster level is a concern though.
What would the rest of a single class build start looking like? I'm assuming Elemental Spell at 7.
If you mean that you could use imbue arrow as part of spell combat - firing one arrow (at -2) with an area spell attached, then firing a full attack (also at -2) - then yeah, I guess so. It's still not the same since you can't attach a Stone Discus or other ranged/ranged touch spell to the arrow(s). And ranged spellstrike can't use area effects, similarly. Ranged spellstrike and imbue arrow are for different types of spell.
On a single-classed magus I'd take Intensify Spell at 7, maybe Elemental at 9. You can use scorching ray, stone discus or other spells before 9th level to vary your damage types, intensify spell is keeping your favourite spell at max power. At level 11 you get two feats - you might get manyshot and improved critical. Ranged spellstrike still doubles damage on crits. At 13 it might be time for quicken spell (quickened intensified rime snowball is 5th level). 15 is of course spell perfection. At 17 two feats again - you could get critical focus and sickening critical perhaps? At 19 you get a bunch of wizard spells, taking the contingency spell and extra contingency feat might be good.
For arcana if you're getting distant spellstrike@12 (just 1 arcana BTW) then reach spellstrike@9, bane blade@15, reflection@18 could work. Or intuitive protection in place of reflection if your GM likes summoning stuff.
If you were going for a 2-level arcane archer dip but otherwise single-classed you'd have to fit weapon focus in there before the dip of course.
If you mean that you could use imbue arrow as part of spell combat - firing one arrow (at -2) with an area spell attached, then firing a full attack (also at -2) - then yeah, I guess so. It's still not the same since you can't attach a Stone Discus or other ranged/ranged touch spell to the arrow(s). And ranged spellstrike can't use area effects, similarly. Ranged spellstrike and imbue arrow are for different types of spell.
On a single-classed magus I'd take Intensify Spell at 7, maybe Elemental at 9. You can use scorching ray, stone discus or other spells before 9th level to vary your damage types, intensify spell is keeping your favourite spell at max power. At level 11 you get two feats - you might get manyshot and improved critical. Ranged spellstrike still doubles damage on crits. At 13 it might be time for quicken spell (quickened intensified rime snowball is 5th level). 15 is of course spell perfection. At 17 two feats again - you could get critical focus and sickening critical perhaps? At 19 you get a bunch of wizard spells, taking the contingency spell and extra contingency feat might be good.
For arcana if you're getting distant spellstrike@12 (just 1 arcana BTW) then reach spellstrike@9, bane blade@15, reflection@18 could work. Or intuitive protection in place of reflection if your GM likes summoning stuff.
If you were going for a 2-level arcane archer dip but otherwise single-classed you'd have to fit weapon focus in there before the dip of course.
I already have Weapon Focus via an Ioun Stone and Wayfinder.
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Magus handbook, at your service :)
And yeah, as people have pointed out, going straight Magus is going to be better for you than either Arcane Archer or Eldritch Knight. Seriously, Magus's class features are great.
Arcane Strike is, surprisingly, not so good on a Magus because you have better things to use your swift action on. For instance, Hasted Assault. I'm not sure why you'd want Empty Quiver Style, either.
Finally, note that casting Snowball normally (with its ranged touch attack) is better than using it with ranged spellstrike (which is not a touch attack). Generally speaking the Eldritch Archer becomes better if it doesn't use ranged spellstrike (although ranged spell combat is amazing). HTH!
I think i see two magic traits. Illegal.
By the way, I think arcane strike is good on an eldritch archer, it opens you up for riving strike and makes a round of ranged spell combat potentially brutal
Depending on how nice my DM is, I may get to avoid using the errata on Snowball so Spell Penetration may not be necessary, tbd.What is the errata on Snowball?
It is now an evocation that goes against spell resistance, and it no longer has a chance to stagger.
I think i see two magic traits. Illegal.
You don't, you see Magic, Regional, Campaign, and Social, respectively.
What actual class features do I care about past 11? It's definitely worth going to 11 for improved spell recall and the feat, but I'm not seeing too many actual Magus Arcana that I care about.
I don't care about heavy armor, I don't care about greater spell combat, and focused spellstrike seems pretty bad, especially considering imbue arrow.
Normally Pathfinder rewards staying single class, but I'm not sure about this specific build. Seems like the only thing I'm missing out on are a couple of arcana to add weapon qualities (which I can actually get back with feats of I want) and the arcane pool, which is a fun trick but I'm not sure if I really need to advance it that far.
You can do both. It's the same, the arrow is fired as part of the casting, it uses it's normal casting time, i.e. it's time isn't affected so I can use it just like spellstrike.
I can use area affects with the range of my arrows, which normally takes 2 arcana, or 6 levels worth of character. I'm not sure those 3 arcana points are more valuable to me over the rest of my benefits. Caster level is a concern though.
What would the rest of a single class build start looking like? I'm assuming Elemental Spell at 7.
You can either declare that you are imbuing the arrow or declare that you are using spellstrike, that would be my reading of it. Your GM may allow it, but being able to do both is tantamount to getting 2 spells/round without quicken or contingency and shouldn't be allowed.
As regards the AA vs. EA question, very little has been written about the AA and whether its worth pursuing, but that suggests that there is little interest in the question, presumably because the AA is not considered worth pursuing (I could be wrong).
The EK vs. Magus question is much more clear cut. EK is only worth pursuing if you want a full caster gish (with 9 spell levels); Magus will not give you that so it is not worth pursuing EK if you are a Magus. The Full BAB is nice, and will give you an extra iterative attack, but you lose out on so much other stuff that it just isn't worth it. I can't see the point in losing a level of spell progression just to get a feat. If you want to do that, I suggest a fighter. You get more out of a level dip into fighter than you do a level dip into EK.
You can do both. It's the same, the arrow is fired as part of the casting, it uses it's normal casting time, i.e. it's time isn't affected so I can use it just like spellstrike.
I can use area affects with the range of my arrows, which normally takes 2 arcana, or 6 levels worth of character. I'm not sure those 3 arcana points are more valuable to me over the rest of my benefits. Caster level is a concern though.
What would the rest of a single class build start looking like? I'm assuming Elemental Spell at 7.
You can either declare that you are imbuing the arrow or declare that you are using spellstrike, that would be my reading of it. Your GM may allow it, but being able to do both is tantamount to getting 2 spells/round without quicken or contingency and shouldn't be allowed.
As regards the AA vs. EA question, very little has been written about the AA and whether its worth pursuing, but that suggests that there is little interest in the question, presumably because the AA is not considered worth pursuing (I could be wrong).
The EK vs. Magus question is much more clear cut. EK is only worth pursuing if you want a full caster gish (with 9 spell levels); Magus will not give you that so it is not worth pursuing EK if you are a Magus. The Full BAB is nice, and will give you an extra iterative attack, but you lose out on so much other stuff that it just isn't worth it. I can't see the point in losing a level of spell progression just to get a feat. If you want to do that, I suggest a fighter. You get more out of a level dip into fighter than you do a level dip into EK.
It works with Spell Combat, and I use Imbue Arrow instead of Spellstrike, because they effectively do the same thing in allowing me to shoot an arrow as casting of the spell.
Going EK is there for the BAB, and for fighter feats, which is what attracted me in the first place. I'd also get to keep my levels as magus for the class for feat prerequisites for things like Extra Arcana, should I decide I still want one of the later ones.
For that reason it is better than the fighter dip.
I'm mapping out potential builds rn for both options and seeing what I like better for an acual comparison, level-by-level.
Of note: DM decided, bow shenanigans achieved.
1st build: All the Prestige Classes!!!
[lvl 7; CL 7] Intensidied Spell, Knowledge Pool, 3rd level spells
[lvl 8; CL 7; BAB 6] Arcane Archer 1 Enhance Arrows; Ability Score Increase
[lvl 9; CL 8; BAB 7] Arcane Archer 2 ; Imbue Arrow
[lvl 10; CL 9; BAB 8] Improved Spell Combat
[lvl 11; CL 10; BAB 8.75] [Spell Blending- up to two 1st-3rd]; 4th level spells
[lvl 12; CL 11; BAB 9.5; FL 5] Fighter Training; Ability Score Increase;
[lvl 13; CL 12; BAB 10.25; FL 5.5] ; [Quicken Spell]; Improved Spell Recall
[lvl 14; CL 13; BAB 11.25; FL 7] Eldritch Knight 1 ; 5th level spells
[lvl 15; CL 14; BAB 12.25; FL 8.5] Eldritch Knight 2;
[lvl 16; CL 15; BAB 13.25; FL 10] Eldritch Knight 3
[lvl 17; CL 16; BAB 14.25; FL 11.5] Eldritch Knight 4; ; 6th level spells
[lvl 18; CL 17; BAB 15.25; FL 13] Eldritch Knight 5;
[lvl 19; CL 18; BAB 16.25; FL 14.5] Eldritch Knight 6;
[lvl 20; CL 19; BAB 17; FL 15] [Magus Arcana 12th level]
Elvencraft Bow -> +1/Seeking/Called/Training (Clustered Shots); +1/Training (Arcane Strike); +1/Training (Deadly Aim)
2nd build: only a 2 level dip in AA
[lvl 7] Intensidied Spell, Knowledge Pool, 3rd level spells
[lvl 8] Improved Spell Combat
[lvl 9] ; [Spell Blending (single 3rd level spell or two 1st/2nd) or Reach Spellstrike]
[lvl 10; FL 5] Fighter Training; 4th levle spells
[lvl 11; BAB 8.5; FL 5] Arcane Archer 1 ;
[lvl 12; BAB 9.5; FL 5] Arcane Archer 2 Imbue Arrow
[lvl 13; BAB 10.25; FL 5.5]; ; 5th level spells; Improved Spell Recall
[lvl 14; BAB 11; FL 6] [Spell Blending (single 5th level spell or two 1st/2nd/3rd/4th) or Distant/Reach Spellstrike]
[lvl 15; BAB 11.75; FL 6.5] ; Heavy Armor
[lvl 16; BAB 12.5; FL 7] Greater Spell Combat; 6th level spells
[lvl 17; BAB 13.25; FL 7.5] ; [Bane Blade]
[lvl 18; BAB 14; FL 8] Focused Spellstrike
[lvl 19; BAB 14.75; FL 8.5] ;
[lvl 20; BAB 15.5; FL 9] [Magus Arcana 18th]
Elvencraft Bow -> +1/Seeking/Called/Training (Clustered Shots); +1/Training (Arcane Strike); +1/Training (Deadly Aim)
3rd build: straight EK
[lvl 7] Intensified Spell, Knowledge Pool, 3rd level spells
[lvl 8] Improved Spell Combat
[lvl 9] ; [Reach Spellstrike/ Spell Blending]
[lvl 10; FL 5] Fighter Trainnig; 4th levle spells
[lvl 11; BAB 8.5; FL 6.5] Eldtritch Knight 1 ; ;
[lvl 12; BAB 9.25; FL 7]
[lvl 13; BAB 10.25; FL 8.5] Eldritch Knight 2 ; 5th level spells
[lvl 14; BAB 11.25; FL 10] Eldritch Knight 3
[lvl 15; BAB 12.25; FL 11.5] Eldritch Knight 4
[lvl 16; BAB 13.25; FL 13] Eldritch Knight 5 ; 6th level spells
[lvl 17; BAB 14.25; FL 14.5] Eldritch Knight 6
[lvl 18; BAB 15.25; FL 16] Eldritch Knight 7
[lvl 19; BAB 16.25; FL 17.5] Eldritch Knight 8
[lvl 20; BAB 17.25; FL 19] Eldritch Knight 9
Elvencraft Bow -> +1/Seeking/Called/Training (Clustered Shots); +1/Training (Arcane Strike); +1/Training (Deadly Aim)
4th build: straight Eldritch Archer
[lvl 7] Intensified Spell, Knowledge Pool, 3rd level spells
[lvl 8] Improved Spell Combat
[lvl 9] Elemental Spell; [Reach Spellstrike]
[lvl 10; FL 5] Fighter Trainnig; 4th levle spells
[lvl 11; FL 5.5] ; ;
[lvl 12; FL 6] [Distant Spellstrike]
[lvl 13; FL 6.5] ; 5th level spells; Heavy Armor
[lvl 14; FL 7] Greater Spell Combat
[lvl 15; FL 7.5] ; [Bane Blade]
[lvl 16; FL 8] Focused Spellstrike; 6th level spells
[lvl 17; FL 8.5] ;
[lvl 18; FL 9] [open Magus Arcana]
[lvl 19; FL 9.5] ; Greater Spell Access
[lvl 20; FL 10] True Magus
Elvencraft Bow -> +1/Seeking/Called/Training (Clustered Shots); +1/Training (Arcane Strike); +1/Training (Deadly Aim)
Ultimately Going EK buys in a higher fighter level, which opens up more feats like GWF and GWS, which makes up for the +2/2 from Bane (unless I also add in Bane, then I'm winning) but is flat damage added to all attacks, rather than forcing me to waste an action and extra pool points for what ends up being one less to hit and 2 less damage, consistently.
EK builds ultimately get me there faster, and whether I go for a 9 level run in it, or a 4 level run in it I can decide just how much I care about those extra class features, of which expanding the arcane pool is the only one I feel is relevant for most of the character's lifespan.
AA builds have the most spell versatility, and can do neat things like bomb enemy areas with Antimagic Field. Combined with EK, this build gets me the most bang for my buck, albeit with spell progression slowed down by 1 level. I can buy back the CL with an Ioun Stone or I can see about whether or not the fact that Prestigous Spellcaster stacking with itself would create a scenario where I could ultimately get back both CLs (I'm assuming not).
Straight EA builds have more access to feats, but ultimately have to spend the resources that I'd otherwise be trading out to get to be as good situationally as I would otherwise expect to be on a regular basis, given the small difference in BAB vs adding Bane more often. Is consistent damage worth more than situationally adding 2d6? This is the most important question of this build.
Assume Greater Magic Weapon is a daily thing, and being able to (in all build cases) use Arcane Pool for at least +3, meaning if I craft the bow at +1, use GMW for (+2< x <+4) then at any given time at or beyond 9th I can expect my bow to function as a +5 weapon, and going ahead of that I can simply add superfluous abilities from the meager list available to me from the magus class.
The most important (and really only) thing I miss by going into a prestige class on this build specifically is 4 or 5 points of arcane pool, depending on how long I dip for. So, at what point level wise am I really going to miss out on those 4 to 5 points?
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Depending on how nice my DM is, I may get to avoid using the errata on Snowball so Spell Penetration may not be necessary, tbd.What is the errata on Snowball?
Gah! I didn’t see that. When did that come down? Do you have a link? My conjurer with evocation as an opposition school is going to be ticked off.
Edit - I think I get it. It’s a change from the reprint in Ultimate Wilderness, right?
Depending on how nice my DM is, I may get to avoid using the errata on Snowball so Spell Penetration may not be necessary, tbd.What is the errata on Snowball?Gah! I didn’t see that. When did that come down? Do you have a link? My conjurer with evocation as an opposition school is going to be ticked off.
Edit - I think I get it. It’s a change from the reprint in Ultimate Wilderness, right?
correct
I took Elemental Spell at 7th, it seems more important.