buffering cap wrote: Buffering Cap
Aura faint conjuration; CL 1st
Slot head; Price 2,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.
Description
This cloth hat is floppy and shapeless. It offers its wearer an unusual amount of protection against particularly devastating blows. Once per day when struck by a critical hit, the wearer can spend an immediate action to convert the bonus damage of the critical hit into nonlethal damage. The cap has no effect if the wearer is immune to nonlethal damage.
Say I want a better cap. This isn't PFS, so I can combine magic items. I combine a buffering cap with... another buffering cap, so it functions twice a day. What is the price of the "combined" item?
It certainly doesn't fall under "multiple different abilities," but it's not a slotless item with multiple similar abilities either. Do I just double the normal price?
Unfortunately, there will never be hard rules for something like this (better to post in advice than rules). So everything that follows is "best guess" within the guidelines of the magic item creation guidelines.
Fortunately, there is actually a similar magic item we can compare this to! Since it has no "attunement" period, the price of a cap usable twice a day should be the same as just buying two caps and swapping one out when the other one gets used. It would be more complicated if it had a "must be worn 24 hours to take effect" clause or the effect was something more common. Crits tend to be spaced out fairly wide and even the highest crit chance is only 30% (and that's a threatened, not confirmed). Just increasing the price by another cap seems reasonable.
Now, if you've picked a fight with the Church of Sarenrae or you've insulted all Swashbucklers then maybe the price needs to be reevaluated but the simple version seems to be just add the price of a cap for every extra use/day.
best bet would be to follow the % increase from either the belt/headband or ring/amulet items that scale
why not just buy a second cap? That's for sure AT LEAST what it'll cost, and the only thing you need is to swap it after it's used. So sure, it turns it more into a once per fight thing, but still gets you two uses a day.
But the ultimate answer for crafting items is up to your GM.
i would say
Buffering Cap I,II,III,IV,V
Aura faint conjuration; CL 1st
Slot head; Price 2,000 gp; 8,000 gp; 18,000 gp; 32,000gp; 50,000gp Weight 1 lb.
Description
This cloth hat is floppy and shapeless. It offers its wearer an unusual amount of protection against particularly devastating blows. Once per day when struck by a critical hit, the wearer can spend an immediate action to convert the bonus damage of the critical hit into nonlethal damage. The cap has no effect if the wearer is immune to nonlethal damage. Buffering Cap II has three uses per day, III has five uses and no longer costs an immediate action to activate, IV has seven uses and no longer costs an immediate action to activate and V can be used unlimited amounts of time and no longer costs an immediate action to activate.
That would be a reasonable thing for a GM to do, but I haven't yet given up on an actual rules answer. I'm the GM, and I don't like making needless calls.
The buffering cap was just an example. Consider a belt of stoneskin instead.
UE wrote: Slot belt; Price 60,000 gp; Weight 10 lbs.
Description
Every 24 hours, this belt’s wearer gains DR 10/adamantine until the belt absorbs 100 points of damage, at which point the belt becomes useless for the remainder of the 24-hour period. When first worn, or after each time this belt is taken off, it must worn for 24 consecutive hours in order for its magic to take effect again.
A belt of stoneskin added to another belt of stoneskin ought to absorb 200 points of damage before it becomes useless. You can't swap back and forth because of the 24-hr requirement. Does it cost 120,000, or what? I don't see why this should be a complicated issue.
Normally adding an item to another is more expensive item + 150% of cheaper item.
Two buffering caps in one item would be 250% cost of a single buffering cap.
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote: That would be a reasonable thing for a GM to do, but I haven't yet given up on an actual rules answer. I'm the GM, and I don't like making needless calls.
The buffering cap was just an example. Consider a belt of stoneskin instead.
UE wrote: Slot belt; Price 60,000 gp; Weight 10 lbs.
Description
Every 24 hours, this belt’s wearer gains DR 10/adamantine until the belt absorbs 100 points of damage, at which point the belt becomes useless for the remainder of the 24-hour period. When first worn, or after each time this belt is taken off, it must worn for 24 consecutive hours in order for its magic to take effect again.
A belt of stoneskin added to another belt of stoneskin ought to absorb 200 points of damage before it becomes useless. You can't swap back and forth because of the 24-hr requirement. Does it cost 120,000, or what? I don't see why this should be a complicated issue.
adding an item to its self multiply the original cost by 4,9,16,25, ect so the belt would cost 240k if it absorbed 200 dmg altho with some items it would be fair to add in some additional effects on some of the increases i would probably rule the belt would get 200 dmg in 22 or even 20 hours or apply energy resist 5 while the damage reduction pool is active(and reducing the damage with energy resist would not reduce the damage reduction pool)
Buffering Cap Is 2000gp
If you look at the item creation rules chargeds per day change the price by
Cost X (charges per day / 5) = Price
So...
If 2000gp is with one charg, then two charges would be 2500gp.
Belt of Stoneskin is 60,000gp
If you look at the item creation rules the cost for this belt would be 120,000gp without the 24h consecutive equipping.
Spell level X Caster level X 2,000gp X (spell length) 1.5 = 120,000gp
It looks like the 24h equipping is 1/2 to the price.
To make the belt last for 200hp it would be a CL 20 item.
So... 4 x 20 x 2,000 x 1.5 / 2 = 120,000gp
This both uses the item creation rules, and makes some assumptions.
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote: That would be a reasonable thing for a GM to do, but I haven't yet given up on an actual rules answer. I'm the GM, and I don't like making needless calls.
The buffering cap was just an example. Consider a belt of stoneskin instead.
UE wrote: Slot belt; Price 60,000 gp; Weight 10 lbs.
Description
Every 24 hours, this belt’s wearer gains DR 10/adamantine until the belt absorbs 100 points of damage, at which point the belt becomes useless for the remainder of the 24-hour period. When first worn, or after each time this belt is taken off, it must worn for 24 consecutive hours in order for its magic to take effect again.
A belt of stoneskin added to another belt of stoneskin ought to absorb 200 points of damage before it becomes useless. You can't swap back and forth because of the 24-hr requirement. Does it cost 120,000, or what? I don't see why this should be a complicated issue.
You have the rules answer. There is no rules answer. I'm going to bold this for emphasis. There are no rules for creating new magic items. There are estimates and guidelines. Magic Item Creation wrote: Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values.
...
Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staves follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.
"guidelines", "Estimating", "Not all items", "may be modified", "starting point", and "judgement calls" are not the stuff rules are made of. And combining two items, even two of the same item, is creating a new magic item.
It's complicated because any formula can end up wildly over or under costing certain things, to the point of being brokenly overpowered (ring of constant true strike) or so expensive that nobody will ever buy it (ring of summon elder worm? Robe of the Archmagi?).
Thanks Dr Styx! That's just what I was looking for.
Bob Bob Bob, I feel obliged to address your objections. By your stated logic you should say the same thing ("no rules") when someone asks the price of a ring of invisibility combined with a ring of feather falling. Yet few even on this most nit-picky of forums would hesitate to recite the "higher price + 150% lower price" formula. The time the whole "rules vs guidelines" kicks in is when someone is trying to be creative. Changing the daily uses of an existing object is as uncreative as you can get. Even the ring of constant true strike is more creative.
That said, let's not turn this into a "what is a rule" thread. If you really object to my use of the word "rule" please read "officially given explicit formula" instead.
That's actually the exact definition I'm already using. The definition of rules can include guidelines and estimates (with rules like "better to be over than under"). Those do exist (clearly). You're asking for an explicit formula for making a magic item and that doesn't exist. Even a strictly by-the-numbers item has to be run through "The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point." There's no such thing as an explicit formula if everything has the potential to be modified afterwards.
Also, Dr Styx is wrong. Like, math wrong. Formula for a 1/day item that costs 2,000 would be x/(5/1)=2,000. X is 10,000. Increase that one to a two (for 2 charges a day) and it's 10,000/(5/2)=4,000. Double the price, not +25%. The Belt of Stoneskin, without the 24 hour restriction, is 4*10*2000*1.5+250*100 or 145,000. Dr Styx forgot the material component cost. How do we get from 145,000 to 60,000? It's not as clean as dividing by two. Multiply by 29/12? Do we subtract the material component cost from both sides first? There is no explicit rule.
And that belt doesn't follow the formulas either. If a spell has a costly material component then the cost (the price to make it) is the cost of the magical supplies (normally half the price) and the full price of the material components. And yet it has a listed cost of exactly half the price, which is literally impossible under the formula. Even if the component only costs a single cp it would bump the price by 1 gp. If it doesn't even cost a cp then it's not a costly material component. This is why I'm saying that no explicit formula exists. Even the developers don't do it the same every time. That's why the first (and supposedly easiest) method suggested is just to find a similar item they've already priced and price it similar to that.
If you want help with a specific item, I can provide it. If you want a program you can punch an item into and get a price, I can tell you that's impossible. If you insist, I have a bunch more examples of items that don't follow the formula that prevent such a program from existing.
Bob Bob Bob wrote: Also, Dr Styx is wrong. Like, math wrong. Formula for a 1/day item that costs 2,000 would be x/(5/1)=2,000. X is 10,000. Increase that one to a two (for 2 charges a day) and it's 10,000/(5/2)=4,000. Double the price, not +25% Yes I was wrong on this formula.
Wondrous Magic Items wrote: If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require. item creation rules wrote: Spell has material component cost Add directly into price of item per charge4
4 If item is continuous or unlimited, not charged, determine cost as if it had 100 charges. If it has some daily limit, determine as if it had 50 charges.
Note the Belt of Stoneskin is a Wondrous Magic Item,has no charges, is not really continuous or unlimited (only lasts till 100hp are used).
The way I came up with the increased CL is.
If you look at the spell, you get 10hp/level. So 100hp is 10th level. Which the belt is.
To get 200hp from the spell, you must be 20th level. So to get 200hp from the belt, the CL of the belt should be CL 20th.
I also agree with Bob Bob Bob, that this is just my assumptions, and is only loosely based on the guidelines of item creation. This all can be Vetoed by any DM/GM.
You might want to read that closer. Magic Item Creation wrote: Spell has material component cost Add directly into price of item per charge4
4 If item is continuous or unlimited, not charged, determine cost as if it had 100 charges. If it has some daily limit, determine as if it had 50 charges.
You're right, it's not 250*100. It's 250*50, because it has a daily limit. It still has a material component cost. If people had figured out a rule to bypass material component costs someone would be talking. There's a reason I know about an obscure spell from Rise of the Runelords (Blood Money). So 132,500 to 60,000. So 24/53 is the price change for a 24 restriction? Seriously?
Again, I need to be clear, I'm not saying you're wrong. Your math was and you're not using all of the parts of the formula you're trying to use, but that's irrelevant. There is no right answer here because "Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staves follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls." Literally the last line of that section.
Will you be happy if I rephrase to "What are the formulas I should use to get the baseline price to which I will then apply my GMly judgment?"
Sure, but the answer to that is unfortunately not a formula. I assume you're familiar with the given rules, located at that link.
Making a new item:
Step 0: Is this a wand, scroll, or potion? Those have explicit formulas based on spell and caster level, just follow those.
Step 1: Attempt to find similar items. This is the first suggested (and allegedly easiest) way to do it. If you can find something similar enough then price it based on that.
Step 2: Then you go through the table, starting from the top. Include all that apply.
Step 3: If you still have something you cannot find a price for then make up a number that sounds about right.
Step 4: Resolve disputes between step 1 and step 2. Combine your prices, adjusting for all appropriate modifiers.
Step 5: Ask a GM to decide whether the price is too high, too low, or just right.
We've actually covered this pretty extensively. The price of "something not on the table, twice as often" is "at least twice as much". Ditto "a spell effect at double strength". Step 1 or 3 on the list of instructions. If that's all you want, there you go. It's going to be wrong (10/day buffering cap probably not worth 10x as much) but if that's all you want, there you go.
Bob Bob Bob wrote: It still has a material component cost Fist I love that we are both discussing that no matter what we come up with it not really in the rules.
Second, why when it says Wondrous Items don’t add the cost of a material component, you are still adding.
Under the descriptions of Creating Magic Armor, Creating Rings, Creating Scrolls, Creating Staves, and Creating Wands, it states you need material components.
But under the descriptions of Creating Magic Weapons, Creating Potions, and Creating Wondrous Items,it states you need not provide any material components costs.
You don't need the components for the spells being expended to make the magic item (also potions do require it). The magic item's price still needs to include the cost of material components. You literally quoted the part of the text that says that. Superscript 4 says: Magic Item Creation wrote: If item is continuous or unlimited, not charged, determine cost as if it had 100 charges. If it has some daily limit, determine as if it had 50 charges. That superscript divides items into four categories: charged, continuous, unlimited, or with a daily limit. It does not say "if an item is continuous and has a daily limit", just "if it has some daily limit". If you're saying the Stoneskin Belt is not continuous (I'd argue otherwise, but that's not the point here) because it has a daily limit, well, then it gets the cost of "item with a daily limit" (50*component). That superscript covers, as far as I'm aware, every possible type of item.
Creating Potions wrote: The costs for materials and ingredients are subsumed in the cost for brewing the potion: 25 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster. Subsumed wrote: include or absorb (something) in something else. Under Creating Poitions it says the cost of materials are included in the formula.
The part about needing materials is only added when the Creation ability says you do. Which Creating Magic Weapons, Creating Potions, and Creating Wondrous Items says you don’t.
You have said that the belt has a daily limit. As far as I can tell, there is none. As long as there is no damage taken, it lasts indefinitely. There is no time distinction on the ability working. But it still can’t be seen as continuous because it can be interrupted.
Creating Potions wrote: The creator must have prepared the spell to be placed in the potion (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.
Material components are consumed when he begins working, but a focus is not.
Again, you're only reading half of what you're quoting. I'll show you with the Wondrous Item one. Creating Wondrous Items wrote: To create a wondrous item, a character usually needs some sort of equipment or tools to work on the item. She also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the item itself or the pieces of the item to be assembled. The cost for the materials is subsumed in the cost for creating the item. Wondrous item costs are difficult to determine. Refer to Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values and use the item prices in the item descriptions as a guideline. Creating an item costs half the market value listed.
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require. The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)
The material cost being subsumed is the raw materials being used in the creation of the item. Leather for a belt, bottles and water for a potion, things like that. You still need to pay for the material components used for the potion (as I quoted at the top of the post).
The second section only covers spells involved as prereqs for creating the item. What it says is that you have to have the spell prepared or known and expend the spell slot but don't have the pay the cost as if you had actually cast it. It does not say the item's price does not include the material component.
You're confusing "here's the steps needed to make it" with "here's the steps needed to figure out the price". I'm only talking about the price. And the price always includes the material component. Not using it for a day does not mean it doesn't have a daily limit. Not that it matters here, because: Belt of Stoneskin wrote: Every 24 hours, this belt’s wearer gains DR 10/adamantine until the belt absorbs 100 points of damage, at which point the belt becomes useless for the remainder of the 24-hour period. It literally triggers once every 24 hours. You don't have to use it up, it will reactivate itself once a day. The only way to stop it is to take it off. If that's not a 1/day item I don't know what is.
And since you insist, here's why I think it's continuous. The spell it's based on lasts "10 minutes or until discharged". As you've already said, it will last forever if you never take damage. If you do take enough damage the spell effect ends (because that's what the spell does) but then it regenerates in at most 24 hours with no input from you whatsoever. You can be asleep and it'll turn itself back on. It's not continuous (without interruption), it's continuous (always on). It even turns itself on if it gets turned off. It's just that the spell it's based on has an off switch, if anyone hits that it still turns off.
Both of us are quoting the same text, but each of us is seeing in it what we think is the correct way. I will step out, because we have failed to convince the other. If someone else has a new way to explain it to us, that would be great.
RULES STATE THE FOLLOWING: Pay attention to the last paragraph.
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Adding New Abilities
Sometimes, lack of funds or time make it impossible for a magic item crafter to create the desired item from scratch. Fortunately, it is possible to enhance or build upon an existing magic item. Only time, gold, and the various prerequisites required of the new ability to be added to the magic item restrict the type of additional powers one can place.
The cost to add additional abilities to an item is the same as if the item was not magical, less the value of the original item. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 longsword.
If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a character’s body, the cost of adding any additional ability to that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds the power to confer invisibility to her ring of protection 2, the cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of invisibility multiplied by 1.5.
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As a GM I would charge you the 150% of the price of the item being added.
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