Symbol of Mirror and Symbol of Healing, How are they intended to be used?


Rules Questions


I've been researching the beneficial spells Symbol of healing and Symbol of mirroring. I've been trying to determine exactly how these spells function (as per the rules) and in what ways these spells can be used in a way that is useful for a party. I had a symbol of mirroring in a high level campaign a few years back and my interpretation seemed reasonable and fair and my dm never had any issues with it's usage.

That being said, I don't know if my interpretation was actually correct.

Setup of spells based on RAW

You can cast a SoH or SoM onto a surface (in my case I chose my character's Shield) and make it permanent via permanency. The surface is then covered with a specially made cloth covering that can be removed as a move action.

"Covering or hiding the rune renders the symbol ineffective, unless a creature removes the covering, in which case the symbol works normally."

The rune is then set to trigger when the cover is removed.

"You can set special triggering limitations of your own. These can be as simple or elaborate as you desire. Special conditions for triggering a symbol can be based on a creature’s name, identity, or alignment, but otherwise must be based on observable actions or qualities. Intangibles such as level, class, HD, and hit points don’t qualify."

Now, if I assume no effort has been done to attune anyone to the symbols (and ignoring the creator atm) both a SoH and SoM will target all creatures within 60 feet of the effect. Each of these creatures then make saving throws as normal against the effect (but as with any spell you can always elect to fail your save and allow it to effect you).

Once triggered the symbol remains active for 10 min. per caster level. After which, since it has been made permanent, it's triggering condition must happen again for it to trigger again. In the case of the SoH this is less useful since it can only specifically heal/harm a given creature once per day.

What this means

I reveal a SoM created for me by an NPC, and myself and my allies gain a single duplicate. Combat starts and enemies close to within 60 feet of my character. They immediately must make a saving throw against the symbol. Those who fail benefit from it, those who make their save are able to shrug off the effect and don't need to make any additional saves unless they leave and re-enter the area.

Keep in mind that unless an enemy takes the time to pass a spellcraft check they have no reason not to attempt to resist an unknown spell effect. They might get an int check to figure out that the symbol is creating the duplicates but there's little reason to assume that it will also benefit themselves. Remember there are spells like prayer that simultaneously help allies and harm enemies.

My interpretations

SoM is mirror image + symbol of death, mirror image does not replenish it's images the way the SoM does. I therefore drew the conclusion that the symbol it's self was replenishing the images and it only affects creatures within 60 feet. If it grants you an image and you move beyond the range of the symbol that image will last 1 round per level or until it's destroyed which ever happens first. Once you move back into the area of effect you would then gain a new image. I list this as my interpretation because looking at the spell description now, it is vague on this point. My interpretation is actually weaker then what you might assume to be the case taking the RAW.

Additional thoughts

Generally, when it comes to spells and items if there is an attunement process it causes you to be ignored by harmful effects or not ignored by helpful effects. There are many examples of magic items that do not function for you until an "attunement" process is completed. It could therefore be argued that SoM and SoH ONLY affect those whom they have been attuned to. This greatly limits the power of a SoH since it means a good aligned temple couldn't just set one up in a back room somewhere allowing them to heal anyone off the street for free.
In the case of SoH it might be that it only harms individuals not attuned and only heals individuals who are attuned. Sadly, the text is ambiguous such that SoM is something that if you attune your whole party to it, will only serve to buff your enemies which really doesn't make any sense.

Does this make sense? am I missing something? is there any offical word on how these spells are supposed to function?

On a side note, my dm allowed me to attune a set of 25 specially prepared necklaces to my symbol of insanity, anyone wearing those necklaces were unaffected. It meant I didn't have to decide up front
who it wouldn't affect and it avoided complications when a helpful NPC was along.


Dotting. I have few answers but many question about the limit of symbols. They all take their cue from Symbol of Death, which has the following language:

Symbol of Death wrote:


As a default, a symbol of death is triggered whenever a creature does one or more of the following, as you select: looks at the rune; reads the rune; touches the rune; passes over the rune; or passes through a portal bearing the rune. Regardless of the trigger method or methods chosen, a creature more than 60 feet from a symbol of death can't trigger it (even if it meets one or more of the triggering conditions, such as reading the rune). Once the spell is cast, a symbol of death's triggering conditions cannot be changed.

In this case, “reading” the rune means any attempt to study it, identify it, or fathom its meaning. Throwing a cover over a symbol of death to render it inoperative triggers it if the symbol reacts to touch. You can't use a symbol of death offensively; for instance, a touch-triggered symbol of death remains untriggered if an item bearing the symbol of death is used to touch a creature. Likewise, a symbol of death cannot be placed on a weapon and set to activate when the weapon strikes a foe.

You can also set special triggering limitations of your own. These can be as simple or elaborate as you desire. Special conditions for triggering a symbol of death can be based on a creature's name, identity, or alignment, but otherwise must be based on observable actions or qualities. Intangibles such as level, class, HD, and hit points don't qualify.

When scribing a symbol of death, you can specify a password or phrase that prevents a creature using it from triggering the symbol's effect. Anyone using the password remains immune to that particular rune's effects so long as the creature remains within 60 feet of the rune. If the creature leaves the radius and returns later, it must use the password again.

You also can attune any number of creatures to the symbol of death, but doing this can extend the casting time. Attuning one or two creatures takes negligible time, and attuning a small group (as many as 10 creatures) extends the casting time to 1 hour. Attuning a large group (as many as 25 creatures) takes 24 hours. Attuning larger groups takes an additional 24 hours per 25 creatures. Any creature attuned to a symbol of death cannot trigger it and is immune to its effects, even if within its radius when it is triggered. You are automatically considered attuned to your own symbols of death, and thus always ignore the effects and cannot inadvertently trigger them.

Questions

1) Can you de-attune yourself from your own symbol? For example, to take advantage of your own symbol of healing.
2) Special triggering conditions can be "as elaborate as you desire" ; does this mean you could set it so that the symbol only affected someone who says the password while touching it? Could you set up something like the necklaces that LordKailas had in the opening post?


The only way to affect yourself is to research a variant spell. I.e. get the GM's approval.

Triggering conditions are not affecting conditions. The symbol is triggered when its triggering conditions are met. More elaborate conditions are less likely to be met. Once met, it then goes into the 10 minute per level affecting phase. If you are close enough and fail your save and are not attuned with immunity, you get affected as appropriate for the symbol.

If you wish to limit it to only affecting people with a token, then you need a spell variant. Permanent gates often have this, but this spell does not.

/cevah


Cevah wrote:

The only way to affect yourself is to research a variant spell. I.e. get the GM's approval.

Triggering conditions are not affecting conditions. The symbol is triggered when its triggering conditions are met. More elaborate conditions are less likely to be met. Once met, it then goes into the 10 minute per level affecting phase. If you are close enough and fail your save and are not attuned with immunity, you get affected as appropriate for the symbol.

If you wish to limit it to only affecting people with a token, then you need a spell variant. Permanent gates often have this, but this spell does not.

/cevah

So, symbol of mirroring is only supposed to buff your enemies?

It doesn't make sense that you would have to research a variant of a spell just to make it function in a way that makes sense.


LordKailas wrote:

So, symbol of mirroring is only supposed to buff your enemies?

It doesn't make sense that you would have to research a variant of a spell just to make it function in a way that makes sense.

Blame the author who based a beneficial spell off an offensive spell and not check targeting. Symbol of Healing is like this also.

/cevah


The fact that it'll affect everybody rather than just your allies seems like a reasonable limitation for a second level auto-refreshing communal mirror image with an inexpensive material component. Maybe they meant for it to work that way.


blahpers wrote:
The fact that it'll affect everybody rather than just your allies seems like a reasonable limitation for a second level auto-refreshing communal mirror image with an inexpensive material component. Maybe they meant for it to work that way.

I don't have an issue with it working on everyone the problem is the attunement component of the spell. All of the symbol spells assume that attunement to the symbol is desirable and so they give it to the caster for free and allow a mechanism for the caster to attune their friends as well. It even allows a sort of attunement password and/or criteria to be setup.

The "intention" of the symbol spells is for them to be setup at a fixed location like your base of operations. Then you attune anyone that is "supposed" to be there and give out the password to your guests.

Doing this with symbol of mirroring and symbol of healing makes it so that you are buffing your enemies only. Unless you treat attunement of these beneficial spells the way attunement with other beneficial effects works.

I shouldn't have to twist the spells in some way just to make them worth casting. IOW getting an NPC to cast them for me just so that they actually help me and my allies.


Then don't attune, or attune your enemies if you know who they are going to be--it doesn't say that they have to be present when the symbol is crafted. Seems simple enough.

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