Touch Spells, Sneak Attack, and metamagic stuff


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

Going over the CRB and the various faqs on Paizo dealing with precision damage, I can't seem to get a conclusive answer on how sneak attack damage interacts with metamagic feats such as empower and maximize.

If an Arcane Trickster with a caster level of 5 and 3d6 sneak dice casts an empowered shocking grasp and gets his freaksneak on, is the precision damage dealt from the shocking grasp included in the +0.5x damage dealt?

Precision damage explicitly states it cannot be multiplied on a critical hit but says nothing about how other means of multiplying damage cannot apply to precision damage. The general rule for damage is that it can be multiplied with applicable feats and features (including but not limited to critical hits), whereas the specific rule for precision damage is that it cannot be multiplied by a crit.
Even if the damage cannot be multiplied from an Empowered spell, what about a Maximized spell? The change in damage only makes it treat the damage as if all the dice rolled the highest possible value- does that affect the sneak attack dice rolled as well?
So, what should I expect when I bring my empowering (and eventually maximizing) Arcane Trickster to PFS tables? Can sneak attack damage from a touch spell be affected by metamagic feats such as Empower and Maximize Spell?

Sczarni

You have some good questions. I'll go ahead and flag your post to be moved over to the Rules Questions Forum so you can best get the answers and attention your questions deserve.

Shadow Lodge

You're not Empowering a Sneak Attack Spell, you're adding sneak attack to an Empowered Spell. Apply metamagic feats first to get the actual spell you're casting, then apply sneak attack normally.

Sczarni

^ this is how I would rule it at my tables as well.


Metamagic on a spell does not affect sneak attack that may also accompany a spell.


ray of frost 1d3 sneak attack 3d6

Scorching ray 4d6 sneak attack 3d6

Disintegrate 12d6 sneak attack 3d6.

The sneak attack damage is completely independent of the spell damage.

Shadow Lodge

BigNorseWolf wrote:
The sneak attack damage is completely independent of the spell damage.

That's... not quite accurate. The sneak attack damage is bonus damage, meaning it's part of the same damage roll, and thus it's all one big number for things like saves, resistances, and vulnerabilities. It's just that it's tacked on to the final version of the spell that's cast, after things like metamagic feats modifies it.

Grand Lodge

Nefreet wrote:
You have some good questions. I'll go ahead and flag your post to be moved over to the Rules Questions Forum so you can best get the answers and attention your questions deserve.

Thank you, though it may be more appropriate for this to be on the rules questions, I was hoping to keep the discussion within the realm of society play, and avoid the "well I would rule it this way because reasons" rhetoric.

It seems strange that sneak attack is but also isn't part of the damage as a whole, and still have un-faq'ed questions regarding this feature. Thank you guys for your responses.

Sczarni

Syries wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
You have some good questions. I'll go ahead and flag your post to be moved over to the Rules Questions Forum so you can best get the answers and attention your questions deserve.
Thank you, though it may be more appropriate for this to be on the rules questions, I was hoping to keep the discussion within the realm of society play, and avoid the "well I would rule it this way because reasons" rhetoric.

The best way to do that would be to include either [PFS] in the title or include an opening blurb that your question is for your PFS character.

But the core of your question is a general rules question, and that's what the Rules Questions Forum is for.

This Forum is for PFS-specific discussions and questions, such as the Campaign itself, scenarios, Chronicle Sheets, legality, and other topics that could only be answered or discussed nowhere else.

Asking "How would you rule this?" is probably the exact opposite of what you're seeking.

Also, if you wanted to get your question added to the Rules FAQ, that could also only happen over there.

Scarab Sages

Precision damage dice are extra damage dice added onto the attack. Extra damage dice are not multiplied whether it’s because of a critical hit or any other reason.

Multiplying Damage wrote:

Multiplying Damage

Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.

Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.

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