Rules Question: Arcane Trickster / Accomplished Sneak Attacker

[Nathanael Love]

I'm working on an Arcane Trickster build. My question is-- does the Accomplished Sneak attacker feat (which increases by Sneak Attack damage by 1d6, presumably to 2d6) count as having the prerequisite +2d6 Sneak attack?

[Brew Bird]

I don't see why it wouldn't.

[Syries]

I have a PFS character that does exactly that. 1 level in unchained rogue, 3 levels in wizard+Accomplished Sneak Attacker allows you the quickest way into the prestige class, being able to take your first Arcane Trickster level at character level 5.
My particular one makes use of deliquescent gloves and almost solely uses touch attacks.

Keep in mind that abilities that increase based on levels are inclusive. if you have +3d6 sneak attack, you also count as having +1d6 sneak attack and +2d6 sneak attack for the purposes of anything with a prerequisite. That's true for all abilities, class features, feats, etc., that increase in effect based on level/BAB/whatever. Accomplished sneak attacker simply allows you to gain +1d6 sneak attack once you hit character level 3 or higher, so its just like having leveled up with another two rogue levels.

[Nathanael Love]

I'm working on a ray specialist build, so I'm still hunting for the right mix of levels. . .

Wizard 3, Unchained Rogue 1, Fighter 1, Arcane Trickster 2, Eldritch Knight 4 would put me at:

BaB +7
Caster Level 8
2 bonus feats (+ weapon finesse)
Fighter level 5 (Weapon specialization unlocked)
(1d8, 5d6 5d10 hit dice)= 58 hit points before CON (taking rogue level 1, 57 taking wizard level 1, 59 taking Fighter level 1)

Compared to straight Magus which would have:
BaB +8
11 caster levels (same highest level spell)
2 bonus feats (+3 magus arcana)
Fighter level 5 (weapon specialization unlocked)
(11d8 hit dice)= 58 hit points before CON

I think that gets pretty close to keeping up with the straight magus in terms of abilities (giving up the spell combat stuff in favor of Sneak Attack)

But I'm not convinced its the absolute best build. . . I'm still looking for other classes with Sneak Attack at 1st level that might give me more than the Unchained Rogue, or another way to get to "proficient in all martial weapons" for the Eldritch Knight pre-req (EK is there to qualify for Weapon Specialization which will be used on rays, and for the BaB).

Any thoughts?

[Robin-Shìdh]

Daring Champion Cavalier gives you finesse for free, martial weapons, and Order of the Blossom will give you 1d6 sneak attack at first level. That archetype also gives up the mount. A small hit in skill ranks, but that might be worth it.

[LoPan666]

While the increased BAB from the fighter and eldritch knight classes would help make your attacks land more frequently, if you're building with the idea of using rays and sneak, you might be better off just taking more arcane trickster levels given that you're attacks will be versus touch AC (+2d6 sneak versus a flat +2 from weapon specialization).

Personally, I'm building toward getting surprise spells (+7d6 on area of effect spells for flat-footed opponents), but that won't happen until 14th level.

[nosig]

Robin L wrote:

Daring Champion Cavalier gives you finesse for free, martial weapons, and Order of the Blossom will give you 1d6 sneak attack at first level. That archetype also gives up the mount. A small hit in skill ranks, but that might be worth it.

Order of the Blossom only gives the sneak attack at 2nd level... or am I missing a gimmick here?

Order Abilities: A cavalier belonging to the order of the blossom gains the following abilities as he increases in level. Sneak Attack (Ex): At 2nd level, an order of the blossom cavalier can make a sneak attack, as the rogue ability of the same name. At 2nd level, his sneak attack damage is +1d6.

and the Daring Champion only get's Finesse with a limited selection of weapons... though it counts for " the purpose of meeting feat requirements."

Champion’s Finesse (Ex): At 1st level, a daring champion gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and he can use Charisma in place of Intelligence for the purpose of combat feats prerequisites. A daring champion also counts as having the Weapon Finesse feat for the purpose of meeting feat requirements. This ability replaces mount.

[Syries]

Keep it simple if you want to be using ranged touch attacks to get sneak attack. It's hard to be able to consistently be sneak attacking with ranged attacks, even if you have cover and a ridiculous stealth. For those without See Invisibility or something similar, the Vanish spell would be great for you to be able to cast a ray and deal sneak attack damage.

Because you're almost always going against touch you don't have to worry about your to-hit as much as other ranged attackers, but you still need point-blank and precise shot to not have ridiculous penalties for attacking an opponent engaged in melee with an ally.

Keep in mind that every level you put in a class that doesn't give spells (Cavalier, rogue, fighter, 1st level Eldritch Knight) reduces the number of spells available to you by at minimum 1 spell per day, not to mention the drop in caster level as well. that translates to fewer ray spells you can fire off each day.

My suggestion, if you want to go ray sneak attacker, is focus on getting really high sneak attack with a level of either unchained rogue or Snakebite Striker Brawler, going wizard for 3 levels and picking up Accomplished sneak attacker, and get to Arcane Trickster 10 at level 14. Snakebite striker has the advantage of giving you +1 BAB while U.Rogue gives you weapon finesse as a free bonus feat. You are only at a 1 level delay in both sneak attack and spells per day. I'd even suggest choosing Wayang as your race for the big bonuses to stealth and free vanish 1/day. You'd take a -20 to your stealth checks but if you attack from cover you may still be able to continuously attack foes with ray attacks in stealth, giving you the bonus sneak attack damage.

Edit* I knew I was forgetting a good feat to throw in there: Expert sniper reduces the penalty for staying hidden by 10, and with the right bonuses to stealth (See: Wayang, reduce person, skill focus(Stealth)) you still have a good chance to avoid being seen after making your attack.

[Lucy_Valentine]

Nathanael Love wrote:

But I'm not convinced its the absolute best build. . . I'm still looking for other classes with Sneak Attack at 1st level that might give me more than the Unchained Rogue

Snakebite Striker archetype of Brawler doesn't have martial flexibility, but does have sneak attack at first. 1 bab, better saves, extra HP.

Fewer skills than rogue, though, and no trapfinding if you care about that.

Nathanael Love wrote:

or another way to get to "proficient in all martial weapons" for the Eldritch Knight pre-req

I'm pretty sure that has to be a level of something, but unless you're truly desperate for a combat feat I don't see fighter as really attractive. I kind of like ranger and slayer for that. There's also a bit on an out there option with the companion-less Hunter archetype (which gives you a constant flexible buff).

[Pirate Rob]

I built my arcane trickster as a priest of pharasma.

Brawler 1, Wizard 3, Arcane Trickster X

[thorin001]

Pirate Rob wrote:

I built my arcane trickster as a priest of pharasma.

Brawler 1, Wizard 3, Arcane Trickster X

Where is your Sneak Attack coming from? You need 2 d6 of it to take Arcane Trickster.

[Halek]

I assume snakebite brawler and accomplished sneak attacker.

[Pirate Rob]

Correct.