Vampire lair

[Rackdam]

I need advice. I am about to send the party on a vampire hunt.
But I am afraid I might kill them all, or at least 2 out of 5.
Party is level 8
Ranger (bow),Druid (Dragon-shaman),Bard,Warrior(Mutation),Sorcerer.

The Vampire lair will be underground and I am planning the fight to take place in a kinda sort of ballroom ( Yes, this is a fancy vampire )

I will use the Vampire CR 9 from d20pfsrd + 8 vampire spawn CR 4.

Is it too much? ( The party will be warn of most of the vampire ability and the many spawn he have )

[Matthew Downie]

In theory it's a CR 10 challenge, tough but not unreasonable.

But it depends largely on how well prepared they are.

If they know or guess they are facing the default Bestiary vampire then they can have energy resistance for fireballs, some kind of see-invisibility, Protection from Evil for mind control, and will be ready to face a flying enemy. Scrolls of Death Ward would make it a lot safer. (Or if they're naturally cautious, and they have that stuff up anyway.)

At that point it's largely a question of damage dealing, armor class, etc. And the odds favor the PCs.

If they're unprepared, they could easily be wiped out by a tactically clever vampire.

[Halek]

Well this is level 8 so the druid sorceror and bard should be able to solo this thing. If not it isnt your fault that they get a sweet vampire spawn template.

[Matthew Downie]

Why would a bard be effective against a vampire?

[Rackdam]

Alright, 1 more question, if the PC douse themselves with garlic, what happen when they confront the vampire?
The weaknesses says :

Vampires cannot tolerate the strong odor of garlic and will not enter an area laced with it. Similarly, they recoil from mirrors or strongly presented holy symbols. These things don’t harm the vampire—they merely keep it at bay. A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against that creature. Holding a vampire at bay takes a standard action. After 1 round, a vampire can overcome its revulsion of the object and function normally each round it makes a DC 25 Will save.

Will it affect the vampire? If yes, how?
And what about the PC ? Do they have to present the fact that they smell like garlic?

I know those question look silly, but that's the kind of question my PC will ask me so ...

[Mark Hoover 330]

2 things: first, going by total XP counted up for the individual monsters this fight is worth 16,000 XP. That puts this somewhere between a CR 11 (12,800 XP) and a CR 12 (19,200 XP) fight.

Second, this party's Average fight would actually contain 6,000 XP worth of monsters. See the PCs' APL is 8. An Average, CR 8 fight contains a 4,800 XP budget but the CRB figures the average party is 4 PCS. This means that each individual in an APL 8 party should reasonably be able to deal with 1,200 XP individually (4,800 XP/4 PCs). 1,200 XP x 5 PCs = 6,000 XP budget for an Average fight.

So using that logic, fight budgets for your players' group look like:

Average - 6000 XP
Challenging (APL +1) - 8000 XP
Hard (APL +2) - 12000 XP
Epic (APL +3) - 16,000 XP

I'd say that the Ballroom Fight is going to be Hard if the PCs are well optimized, well equipped and forewarned; Epic if the party is lacking in some area or if the vampire and spawn are equally well built.

Now all that being said, if the party douses themselves in garlic by the Weaknesses quoted above this should repel these undead for 1 round, after which they must make DC 25 Will saves to move adjacent to the PCs.

Garlic being a strong odor, I'd say take a page out of the Stench monster ability and rule it as a 5' Aura effect around each PC. They don't need to present the bulbs or anything, they just need to wear the smell.

Remind your PCs (if they make Knowledge checks) that garlic doesn't HARM the vampires in any way. Coating weapons in garlic oil, throwing vials of minced garlic or researching a new spell called Garlic Storm won't actually hurt these creatures. They may however try to get creative as follows:

1. Stink bombs: weaponizing the stink of garlic alongside a Smokestick to create a thrown device which in turn sets up a "Garlic Fog." If my players attempted this I would allow such a device to have a weaker effect spread over a wider area: this creates a 10' burst from the targeted square but there is no round 1 auto-repulsion and the will save is only DC 20 to keep the undead from moving through affected squares

2. Brewed Reek - Garlic Based: Brewed Reek is an alchemical splash weapon that hits a foe with a sticky, concentrated stench so powerful that victims are potentially Sickened or Nauseated by it. If my players wanted to make a garlic-based version I would just allow this device completely as it is, save that I'd make it a Will save and increase that to DC 20 instead.

Last but not least, there are a couple spells I can think of off the top of my head that generate a smell: Ghoul Touch, Stench of Prey and Stinking Cloud. All of these produce a noxious stink that inflicts a condition on victims failing saves. However there's one that ingenious players have pulled on me to simulate mundane reeks with no particular combat value: Prestidigitation.

Your ballroom fight is a very unique, niche situation regarding that spell. Prestidigitation can flavor food and clean an entire person; it stands to reason that a clever PC might use it to "flavor" themselves with the stink of garlic. Prestidigitation says it can't ever do something to DAMAGE an opponent, but the garlic aversion is specifically called out to not actually be harmful to the vampires.

So if my players were to use Prestidigitation to simulate the stench of garlic, frankly I'd just give it to them and reward their ingenuity. If you're not feeling that generous, you might instead lower the DC of the Will save the vampires need to make to the standard DC for casting the spell: 10 + Spell Level + Caster's casting stat modifier.

[Rackdam]

That is just perfect, thank Mark!

With all that new info, I will remove 4 Vampire spawn and I think this will be a fair/hard fight. Just enough.

[SanderJK]

Vampires are strong for their CR.
And the large group of spawns presents a unique danger: Dominate Person spam.

If you group can learn, and gets the option to negate the dominate, then it could be a fun/challenging fight.
If you throw them in unprepared, they will probably all end up dominated as thralls due to having potentially 9 will saves / round, and whenever someone doesn't make it they fight for the other side.

An extra note is that the Vampire Sorceror as written on the srd is pretty nasty because the vampire template greatly enhances the sorcerors DCs and spells / day. The RAW vampire can be Greater Invisible and attempt to drain, or just rain scorching rays, or punch negative levels against flatfooted. I've seen people struggle against them for sure.

If you decide to build your own vampire (Say a vampire anti-paladin(8)) things get really bad though.

[Matthew Downie]

Matthew Downie wrote:

In theory it's a CR 10 challenge, tough but not unreasonable.

Mark is right: it's CR 11/12 - I miscalculated.

[Dastis]

Assuming their builds are decent this fight is very well doable. Particularly if they know its a vampire lair beforehand. Honestly the biggest decider of life and death of PCS is how you play the villians tactically. If all NPCS focus fire a single target down each round and setup to allow overflow attacks to hit the next target yes they are screwed. Otherwise it is a very reasonable fight

[Halek]

Matthew Downie wrote:

Why would a bard be effective against a vampire?

I dont know how this bard is built so i am going to assume no feats like arcane strike and rivening strike which makes this even better.

Bards have effective save or suck spells. If the bard is built for melee and has things like arcane strike and fencing grace or charisma to damage he can straight up out fight it.

If the bard is built as a caster he should have some save boosters. Standard no archetype bard with spell focus and its greater version can have 20 upwards saves about 50 50 chance on a vampire. Except the bard can also do this to the spawn and have them fight the vampire for the spells.

You might be asking why does the bard have all the good spells? use magic device and pages of spell knowledge exist.

You can have a fantastic bard who goes and picks up desnas fighting style and using his charisma as attack and damage. This bard can destroy the encounter by virtue of effectively stealing minions with enchanment magic while hitting harder than a fighter.

It isnt that a bard would be good against a vampire its that bards are good.

Also if you dont want an awesome bard like that i guess you could go flagbearer and be a walking beacon of buffs.

[Havzak]

Halek wrote:

This bard can destroy the encounter by virtue of effectively stealing minions with enchanment magic while hitting harder than a fighter.

Undead are immune to mind affecting spells.