Ok so we all know about Paragon Surge being Nerfed.
But why does Paragon Surge not work with Emergency Attunement?
From what I have read it seems like it should actually work. I was asked this by a friend who saw the combo on a forum and he wanted to possibly bring it into a game but I had to admit I didn't know if its rules legal and our DM is a bit strict on that.
He knows I like to look up rules and how they play so he came to me. But honestly I am not seeing why they shouldn't work other than it undoes a Nerf designed by the designers. So RAW instead of RAI
Paragon Surge's last paragraph says "The first time each day that you cast this spell, you must select a feat and make all the associated choices that come with it. Once that choice is made, it is set for the day and additional castings must make the exact same decisions."
EA says that for a standard action you can alter one of your abjuration or transmutation spells (Paragon Surge is a Transmutation Spell). So that checks out so far. Then it says must currently be effecting you (So you need to cast PS first) and must grant a choice. The spell grants a choice when you cast it. The second time you cast it you are still given a choice. But there is only one option, you MUST make those decisions again. The paragraph specifically calls out making the exact same decisions. Then EA says you change the benefit to a different one of the same list. I.E you change the feat to another feat acceptable for the spell.
So where is the issue? More or less I am looking for either information to explain why it won't work. Or give him some evidence to take to the DM rather than just "Hey this should work, and would be totally cool"
[I did post this on GiTP for additional advice.]
Once that choice is made, it is set for the day and additional castings must make the exact same decisions.
This is pretty much the only reason standing in your way. Once you make your daily decision, it's pretty much set in stone. You may be able to talk your way around it depending on your GM.
The specifics of the spell would likely overall override the general tone of the feat.
Once that choice is made, it is set for the day and additional castings must make the exact same decisions.This is pretty much the only reason standing in your way. Once you make your daily decision, it's pretty much set in stone. You may be able to talk your way around it depending on your GM.
The specifics of the spell would likely overall override the general tone of the feat.
Yes but if you think about it. Each type you cast a spell that has a decision that is not Paragon Surge it is set for the period of casting in the same way.
The way I read EA working is that it lets Paragon Surge work as Errata'ed. Then Emergency Attunement comes in After the spell and lets you change the spell. Since no normal spell allows you to normally change the choices you make. So the Specific beats the General text. EA specific beats the General of PS.
But I might be wrong. I know GM is rule 0, no matter what if it cant clear a GM it will not work no matter what.
Consider the intention of the nerf. They felt it was too strong to select different feats on a single day with different castings. How would they then possibly allow it to change it mid fight which is stronger. RAI it would probably not be allowed, RAW it's really up for interpretation.
I believe it would work, but possibly not as wonderfully well as you might think.
Emergency attunement lets you change an option from a list, in the case of paragon surge, the option is a list of all feats you qualify for. What it doesn't do is let you go a level below that, i.e. change the choices you made as a result of picking a feat.
So, if you have a paragon surge running, you can change the choice of feat: expanded arcana to dodge (and back with a second casting) but what you can't do is change the choice you made for expanded arcana. The choices within expanded arcana isn't part of the list of options for paragon surge, and thus outside the bounds of what emergency attunement can change.
It is also arguable that after the first casting you don't have a list of options at all, so unless it is part of the first casting of paragon sphere in a day, emergency attunement wouldn't do anything. Personally, I wouldn't nerf that hard, but it is a valid interpretation of what the feat can do.
Specific trumps General. I guess it just comes down to which of these is more specific. As far as the Dev team is concerned, Paragon Surge is probably more specific.
HOME-RULE: If I were a GM I'd probably go somewhere in the middle. Under normal circumstances Emergency Attunement cannot be used with Paragon Surge, but if cast a second time during the day they can choose a new feat upon casting (so rather than giving you a "standard action to change the spell", the feat simply removes the last line from the spell).
Eg. an 10th level Bloodrager takes Improved trip with his first casting of Paragon Surge. He retains the use of this feat for 10 minutes.
Later that day he decides to cast Paragon Surge again, this time to pick up improved disarm. He's only allowed to pick a different feat because he has Emergency Attunement, but the duration is still halved (5 minutes). He still can't change the feat without re-casting the spell.
If he decides to cast it a 3rd time it would give him the most recent feat he chose (in this case Improved Disarm).
You could also change the casting time to a full round action for characters who want to change the feat, or (for alchemists) say that they have to take a move action on the turn the spell is cast in order to change the feat.
Just my 2 cents.
I believe it would work, but possibly not as wonderfully well as you might think.
Emergency attunement lets you change an option from a list, in the case of paragon surge, the option is a list of all feats you qualify for. What it doesn't do is let you go a level below that, i.e. change the choices you made as a result of picking a feat.
So, if you have a paragon surge running, you can change the choice of feat: expanded arcana to dodge (and back with a second casting) but what you can't do is change the choice you made for expanded arcana. The choices within expanded arcana isn't part of the list of options for paragon surge, and thus outside the bounds of what emergency attunement can change.
It is also arguable that after the first casting you don't have a list of options at all, so unless it is part of the first casting of paragon sphere in a day, emergency attunement wouldn't do anything. Personally, I wouldn't nerf that hard, but it is a valid interpretation of what the feat can do.
Your interpretation is completely valid and I can't argue that it can be used that way. Of course I do believe it tries to go against the spirit of the feat as its suppose to allow the change in choice. The choices are made as part of picking the feat. Its not that you get the feat and at any time can choose what spell it gives you in the came of Expanded Arcana. When you pick Expanded Arcana you choose the spell you learn. The way I see it when you cast Paragon Surge and pick Expanded Arcana, you pick what spell it grants you. That second choice (First choice was the feat, the second was the spell) is still part of the choice granted by the spell. Because no one is arguing that you can't choose the spell when you pick the feat. If the designers wanted it that way they could say "Sure you can pick Expanded Arcana as a feat, but you can't pick a spell as that is a separate choice."
I'm pretty sure that the spirit of the feat is not to provide a loophole for Paragon Surge that they had previously closed and grant someone every spell on their list as a potential 'known' spell. The spirit of the feat is that you can do things like change resist energy(cold) to resist energy (fire).
Note that in my version (the first one anyway) this feat is still very useful with Paragon Surge, just not brokenly useful.
You seem set on reading it the way you want though, so good luck to you.
I'm pretty sure that the spirit of the feat is not to provide a loophole for Paragon Surge that they had previously closed and grant someone every spell on their list as a potential 'known' spell. The spirit of the feat is that you can do things like change resist energy(cold) to resist energy (fire).
Note that in my version (the first one anyway) this feat is still very useful with Paragon Surge, just not brokenly useful.
You seem set on reading it the way you want though, so good luck to you.
The book Emergency Attunement came out in was released in July 2013
The Errata for Paragon Surge came out in July 2014. So I don't think they intended for the feat to bypass an errata because it came out before that errata existed.