Please explain to me how CR magic works.

[Quentin Coldwater]

Before I go on, I have to say: Maurice, get out. This is secret. I know you're watching.

I'm running a Wrath of the Righteous campaign (still fairly low-level, about to clear the first book), and I'm thinking of substituting some enemies to spice things up a bit. Looking at some enemies, I wonder how they're even a challenge at all.

But anyway, I was looking into the CR system, and the more I look, the less it makes sense to me. It seems more like a "feels" thing and less like an exact science.

So, anyway. What I've found so far:
CRB pages 397-398 have all the relevant info. Determine CR budget, fill in with enemies. Multiple enemies bump CR by 1 each time.

This is fine and all, but it seems like the designers assumed a large number of mooks is equal to a higher-CRed monster. The Core Rulebook specifically suggests replacing a Gargoyle with three Small Earth Elementals. I know there's strength in numbers, but in that specific instance, the group's APL is 9. Small Earth Elementals will be s speedbump, not a serious challenge. Hell, anything 3 CR lower than APL will rarely faze a decent party. I'm experiencing something similar in my campaign right now. They're going to enter the final dungeon of this book, and it's filled with wimps. At APL 4, six 10 HP creatures (CR 0.5), or two 15 HP (CR 1 each) are pathetic. They add up to a decent challenge, but they simply won't stand a chance.

Would working the other way around work, as well? Grab a few monsters, add their XP values, see if it lines up with CR? I'm not going to bother with three Giant Ants (for example) if two Giant Scorpions are a much fairer challenge.

So, because I'm lazy, I'm not going to customize the mooks or give them class levels or whatnot, but I do want to make my players feel challenged. I'll probably grab some random NPCs or monsters that'll approximately be a fair CR, but if you can point me in the right direction, that'd be great (I'm sure there are combat generators online as well). They slaughtered their way through the middle dungeon as well with barely a scratch on them, which also had six fights with the same identical mooks.

I know most Adventure Paths are written for 4 players with 15 point buy. I'm running 20 point-buy with 5 players (though only 4 will be present next session), and I'm really noticing the difference in power. Maybe I'll throw in an extra mook in every encounter, that should at least balance things out somewhat. It's easier to do than applying the Advanced template to everything (and in terms of action economy, the latter won't do much).

[Jeraa]

One thing to remember is that an encounter with a CR equal to the party level is supposed to be relatively easy to overcome.

The challenge system doesn't really work. It was flawed in 3.X D&D, and remains so in Pathfinder. Take a look at your party, and pick the enemies accordingly. Ignore the actual listed CR.

[voideternal]

Quentin Coldwater wrote:

...Multiple enemies bump CR by 1 each time....

To clarify, multiple enemies do not bump CR by 1 each time. See CR Equivalencies.

A ghoul is CR 1. Two ghouls are CR 3. 16 ghouls are CR 9. This works mathematically as well. CR 1 ghouls give 400 xp. 16 ghouls are 16 x 400 = 6400, which is what one CR 9 monster would give.

[Kitty Catoblepas]

Jeraa wrote:

One thing to remember is that an encounter with a CR equal to the party level is supposed to be relatively easy to overcome.

The challenge system doesn't really work. It was flawed in 3.X D&D, and remains so in Pathfinder. Take a look at your party, and pick the enemies accordingly. Ignore the actual listed CR.

I agree with this. There are so many monsters that are poorly CR'd that the system should be taken with a grain of salt at the very least.

Take, for instance, 2 monsters from CR 3: Ogre and Caryatid Column. Also, take a 4th level Human Bloodrager as the baseline.

The Abyssal Bloodrager (as a monster) should have (when raging):

HP:42 , AC:15 (19 with Shield), Init +2, Att +9;2d6+7 (+7;2d6+13 with Power Attack), Reach 10' (15' with Long Arm), Move 30', Saves: 8/3/3, Combat Reflexes

The Ogre has the following:

HP:30, AC:17, Init -1, Att +7 2d8+7, Reach 10', Move 30', Saves: 6/0/3

The Ogre is mostly outclassed by the Bloodrager (completely if the Bloodrager has time to prepare his buff spells). The Ogre can be defeated in a multitude of ways by a level 3 party

The Caryatid Column has the following:

HP:36, AC:14, Init -1, Att +8 1d8+4, Reach 5', Move 20', Saves: 1/0/1, DR 5/-

While the Caryatid Column's stats aren't better than the Ogre's or Bloodrager's, she has the following special abilities:

*Deals 3d6 damage to a weapon that strikes her, giving it the Broken condition if higher than the weapon's hardness.

*Immune to any spell that allows magic resistance

*Bonus to Initiative/Surprise

*Construct traits

She is most likely going to inflict some grievous damage to your party's melee (broken weapons), waste some spells (spell immunity), and get the drop on the party's vulnerable members (surprise/initiative bonus). Depending on party makeup, gear, spell preparation, and dice rolls, the encounter can become unwinnable.

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CR is a passable guideline, but be wary of your group.

[GM Rednal]

If you want to challenge your players, I highly recommend reading this guide. It covers things in great detail, and will help you better understand the CR system, what it takes to create a challenging encounter, and how to make things easier on yourself in the process.

[Bob Bob Bob]

It gets better! Level 20 Wizard with NPC WBL: CR 19. Wizard 1/Commoner 19 with NPC WBL: still CR 19. Fighter 20 who is literally naked: CR 18. Warrior 20 with NPC WBL: CR 18. That's classed NPCs. Then there's things like the aboleth (CR 7, DC 22 3/day Dominate Monster) or the Clockwork Soldier (CR 6 AB +18) or the Seugathi (CR 6, DC 20 Will save or be confused aura (and no immunity if you do save) and can immediate action pick the result on the confusion table). CR, as a system, is best described as dysfunctional. Or at least poorly implemented.

Now, depending on where your players are in WotR, that may be intentional. Since it's the mythic one, "slaughtering hordes of monsters" seems like something that should be happening at some point. If you don't think that's the goal then you probably need to be looking at alternatives (depending on the monsters). For humanoids it's usually as easy as adding alchemist's fire (or some other splash weapon). The problems with low levels against higher levels generally come down to the basest numbers, AC, BAB, saves, and HP. While AC frequently (but not always) goes up touch AC tends to stay low. So use splash weapons or other touch attacks. Attack bonuses outpace AC in general, never expect low level opponents not to be hit. If you feel mean, try to fit in a skald using one of the linnorm death curses. For saves there's intimidate, for HP there's not really anything they can do (possibly crit fishing?). If you must confront higher level players head on with lower level opponents, aid another is probably your best bet. Maybe some buffs, flanking, etc.

Then there's the stuff designed to shut down lower level opponents. DR, regeneration, Combat Reflexes, stuff like that. That you just kinda need to let work. That's part of what it's meant to do.