No this isn't a 5e thread, but I've been playing a lot of Shadowrun as of late and I was looking at the way they calculated Limits and was wondering if this could apply to Pathfinder in terms of saving throws.
Instead of a Single Stat being the key to a saving throw, saving throws would be calculated as a combination of two.
Fortitude: (Str+Con)/2
Reflex: (Dex+Int)/2
Will: (Wis+Cha)/2
Alternatively I was looking at something else like...
Fortitude: (Str+Con+Con)/3
Reflex: (Dex+Dex+Int)/3
Will: (Wis+Wis+Cha)/3
Has anyone had experience with something like this? I have always wondered why quick thinkers and strong people didn't get to show that in their stats.
More importantly, what big problems can you all foresee with either of the approaches? One I can see is that huge monsters would have great Fortitude saves and probably lower Reflex saves because of it. . How would you handle Constructs and Undead?
Seems like it's a lot of work for very little return. I really don't see why you would need this extra complication. Especially since you would have to re-calculate monster saves on the fly.
Players whose characters have high DEX, CON or WIS will complain from having their saves watered down. Players with low DEX, CON or WIS will rub their hands in glee at the unexpected bonus you're handing them on a silver platter.
As long as it's a home game, no one can stop you. But you have to ask yourself why you need to make extra hoops for yourself to jump through, as a DM. Isn't PF already complex enough for you?
When it comes to stats I find that they are imbalanced in terms of what they offer. One of the biggest complaints that I hear is that Dex is some God Stat (and its the biggest argument against Dex to Damage) and truly I dislike one-stat character creation.
RE: Monsters on the fly, yeah thats an issue but then again its a part of my preparation anyway so its really just a single step.
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Your system makes it extremely difficult to boost a weak save. Consider the cost in terms of point buy for me to take a 1st level Fighter to a +2 will save. Under normal rules, I'd need 5 build points to raise wisdom to 14. Under your system I'd need to spend 10 build points to raise both wisdom and charisma to 14. I'm spending twice as many build points in total for the same benefit, and have lost any option to dump charisma to pay for it (which, at most point buy levels, makes this completely untenable). But on the flip side, dumps aren't penalized. If I put 7 in both wisdom and charisma, I'm still getting the same -2 penalty to will saves that I would have gotten for having 7 wisdom normally. Your system actively discourages Fighters from investing more than 10 points into wisdom and charisma, without penalizing dumps. This causes the system overall to favor more aggressive min-maxing.
I've done something similar to this before, using Str+Con, Dex+Int, and Wis+Cha for the three respective saves. Instead of halving them, however, I just removed the +2 bonus you normally get a 1st level to your strong saves. I found this system was a bit volatile, and you'd often get extremely high saves. It also adffected class balance quite heavily, since the Monk does not appreciate Intelligence and Charisma dumps penalizing it, and classes like the Sorcerer or Paladin get explosively high will saves. It was a fun experiment, but it wasn't a houserule I stuck with.
This seems to just hurt saves rather than help them. Any bonus to a save is 50% what it should be and any hindrance is only 50%.
Good to hear some other opinions (especially the anecdote with the two just added together).
Let me ask you a question then (as your examples covered PB which I appreciate), if we were rolling stats, say 4d6 6 times, would you appreciate such a system more or less than if you were doing PB?
I like the idea of everything helping with saving throws, but I don't want to go through the effort of changing all of them manually to work with 6 saves (a la 5e). Perhaps its a lazy shortcut.
So! One option (at least that i do with Skill checks) is that I don't allow players to say "I want to make a diplomacy check."
Instead, they tell me what they're going to do and I say "roll a Diplomacy check, but use Intelligence/Wisdom instead" [if their approach describes diplomacy using those stats.]
Something similar can be done with Fortitude. A Monk could say "I endure the flames through sheer willpower of Mind over Matter" and you say "Well shit! Roll a Will Save!" and badda bing, you've now given your players agency to roleplay to their character *and* have given them the ability to pass more saves by doing so, without really changing the mechanics of the game much.
Consider pushing your players to describe what they do and how they do it, rather than the skill or save they make. Someone uses Burning Hands? Use the DC, but not the check (and modify it based on what the character chooses.) For example; let's say dodging a swinging axe requires Reflex 12. This is a wizard with High Int. He says that he instead studies the axe and times it. Instead of dodging with Dex, he could Reflex with Int, because he's using his brain to figure out how to approach the task.
Say someone is giving you "withering" criticism and you want a Will save to see if they handle it well or something; it may be applicable to replace Wisdom with Charisma to see how they fair, since it's a social encounter. (I realize that's a lame example, but Charisma is hard!)
This is my approach, and I imagine that this is the best way to accomplish what you want, rather than trying to engineer new saves.
Rolling three examples from an online source and a single PB at 15PB. 4d6 drop the lowest. Lets look at a Barbarian, level 4 but ignoring the level 4 stat bonus.
18 (16 + 2)/14/16/11/10/10
+4/2/3/0/0/0
Normal +7/+3/+1 (fort, reflex, will)
Double +7.5/+2/+1
Triple + 7.33/+2.333/+1
19 (17 +2)/16/16/14/15/9
+4/3/3/2/2/-1
Normal +7/+3/+3
Double +7.5/+3.5/+1.5
Triple +7.33/+3.67/+2
14 (12 +2)/12/12/11/11/8
+2/1/1/0/0/-1
Normal +5/+2/+1
Double +5.5/+1.5/+0.5
Triple +5.33/+1.66/+0.67
19 (17 +2)/14/14/7/10/7
+4/2/2/-2/0/-2
Normal +6/+3/+1
Double +7/+1/+0
Triple +6.67/+1.67/+0.33
In all cases except the PB in which Str was high enough to off set Con, the saves were worse. This really only helps
-High Int medium dex casters to get a better Reflex
-High str medium con martials get a better Fortitude
-High Charisma casters get a better will save.
It hurts everyone else and even hurts those classes that it benefits, since it hurts their other saves. Sometimes the swing was up to 2 points between normal saves and the "double" saves using all stats.
Well I guess the numbers don't lie.
Really hurts MAD classes way worse than I thought.
@Cattleman: As much as I would like that, I know a lot of players that I have would rather have more codified terms. If I only extend it to players though, and not include monsters, it would probably be seen as more 'fair' for them.
Perhaps I'll just add more traps, encounters or abilities that require other types of checks (Str to break, resist wind, Int to escape a Maze or trap, and Cha to resist Mind Control suggestions like Charm contests).
Thank you all for the feedback!
This really only helps
-High Int medium dex casters to get a better Reflex
-High str medium con martials get a better Fortitude
-High Charisma casters get a better will save.
It seems very unlikely to help the characters overall, either. A Fighter with high Str may very well get a better Fortitude save, but he may have a worse Reflex and Will save as a result, and overall its his weaker saves he's more concerned about bolstering. Wizards and Sorcerers definitely appreciate their higher saves, but will dislike the Fort drop since Str is their dump stat. I'm actually having trouble of conceiving of a non-contrived character who would definitively prefer this system. Battle Oracle who has equal numbers in both Dex and Int but dumps Wis is all I can think of.
I like the idea of everything helping with saving throws, but I don't want to go through the effort of changing all of them manually to work with 6 saves (a la 5e). Perhaps its a lazy shortcut.
I'm generally in agreement that contributing to saves increases the value of Dex/Con/Wis for classes that don't normally make use of them, and I like the idea in principle of increasing the value of Str/Int/Cha in the same way. Letting them add to saving throws definitely seems the most graceful method.
The main problem that made me walk away from the idea is that different classes react to this differently. Classes like the Sorcerer are balanced by the fact that Charisma is kind of a garbage stat. Buffing charisma is inherently a buff to these classes... and a stealth nerf to classes that normally dump charisma. This means that any modification has broad system-wide ramifications.
So no, I don't think there's a shortcut here.
The system I've always liked for boosting weak saves is something like:
"Key three stats to a save, your modifier to that save is the stat that is not highest or lowest (i.e. the middle one)."
This, I think, benefits MAD classes (who can have better saves because all their stats are spread out) more than SAD classes (because they have one high stat and a bunch of low ones, and boosting the high stat won't increase any saves.)
@Cattleman: As much as I would like that, I know a lot of players that I have would rather have more codified terms. If I only extend it to players though, and not include monsters, it would probably be seen as more 'fair' for them.Perhaps I'll just add more traps, encounters or abilities that require other types of checks (Str to break, resist wind, Int to escape a Maze or trap, and Cha to resist Mind Control suggestions like Charm contests).
Thank you all for the feedback!
For clarification if you come back:
* I do only use it for players. I could see maybe using it on a monster for something particularly cinematic, but I could always just do that if the monster rolls well anyway since the players don't know what I rolled. I think we're in agreement on that point (that it's easier and more fair to have the players do this rather than buffing the monsters via approach.)
* This is also something I do. I want my players to be routinely jumping, climbing, dodging, speaking, etc.. because I want their weaknesses to be as apparent at their strengths. [I actually use a Skill system like Bethesda, where you get skills for doing stuff rather than leveling. Because of this I have to design dungeons and encounters with ways to Climb, Break, jump, etc.. so the players *can* gain skills. It isn't too hard, creates more interesting areas, and makes use of all of your stats.