With the release of the Elemental master's handbook came the Elemental mystery for the oracle. For me it was love at first read and with my DM starting to get somewhat of a nasty streak with player deaths, now seems as good a time as ever to start working on a back-up character.
So my idea is to utilize the revelations elemental gives you by making an agile character that controls the battlefield using a combination of trips and bull rushes. This seemed like an easy enough task, but seeing as oracle doesn't get any bonus feats building it has become pretty hard. We are level 8 at the moment and being human and going oracle for all levels gives me just enough feats to take improved trip and bull rush and the 4 revelations I really want to start out (Dance of whirling water, Desert mirage, flowing step and sweeping impact). This however leaves me with a pretty low cmb and no skill focus acrobatics to activate Dance of Whirling Water.
I have been looking for an answer to this problem and taking 3 levels of lore warden fighter (from the field guide) seems to fix it, but I'm wondering if there is something that would allow me to do the thing I want to with a smaller dip so my oracle progression wouldn't be hampered too much. Here is what I currently have.
Oracle 5/Lore Warden 3
Race: Human (vudrani)
-Alternate racial trait: Focused study
Point-buy 20:
Str 15 (+1 at level 4 +2 from ABP for 18)
Dex 13+2 (+1 at level 8 for 16)
Con 13
Int 13
Wis 9
Cha 14 (+2 from ABP for 16)
Traits:
Heirloom weapon: +2 CMB with light flail
Magical Knack: Oracle
Mystery: Elemental
Curse: Not sure yet.
1: Oracle 1. Extra revelation, skill focus acrobatics. Dance of Whirling Water, Flowing Step.
2: O1, Lore Warden 1. Power Attack.
3: O1, LW2. Improved Bull Rush, Improved Trip.
4: O1, LW3.
5: O2, LW3. Extra Revelation: Sweeping Impact.
6: O3, LW3. Desert Mirage.
7: O4, LW3. Greater Bull Rush.
8: O5, LW3. Skill Focus Diplomacy.
This build gives me a higher CMB, better weapon proficiency's and already has acces to Greater bull rush, with greater trip coming next level. It also allows me to get some of the other great revelations I want to take.
Tips, criticisms and opinions are greatly appreciated as long as it stays true to it manages to stay true to the core concept. Thanks in advance!
I have also been look at this mystery for a while and while never got anything concrete. I did realize that if you are the oracle archetype spirit guide you can use the mammoth shaman spirit to get the hex that treats your class level as bab for cmb/cmd. This admittedly hurts the multiclassing idea a bit because you lose revelations for this archtype but that is what rings of revelation are for.
Just a thought to consider
Brawler Dip makes you not have to rely on having such a high Intelligence for Combat Expertise and the improved combat maneuver options. This can free you a lot of points to use on your other attributes to make them better. It also gives you Martial Flexibility, for when you want to Trip/Bull Rush baddies, you can spend Martial Flexibility to make them even better as the situation calls. Only one level would be required in addition to your Lore Warden stuff.
Personally though, I'd try and not focus on more than one maneuver at a time. This is primarily because it's extremely feat intensive, as you've noted, and therefore it becomes problematic to do both effectively. If you're still hell bent on getting both types, I'd consider not having Focused Study and actually use the bonus feat for your maneuvers, especially if you plan to dump Intelligence down with the Brawler dip, making the Skill Focus feats pointless since you have so few skill points to utilize them with.
Depending on the mechanics for your Tripping options, that might be better if it doesn't adhere to size limitations, since Bull Rushing can really screw over your friendly martials from full attacking. (Not relevent until 6+, but still something to consider if you're already 8th level and multiple attacks are commonplace.) Tripping makes the enemies both disadvantaged, and easier for your martials to hit with their attacks (unless they're ranged), so definitely consider it.
Also, don't forget to rely on your personal buffs to help you out. Divine Favor gives you up to a +3 to your CMB checks (or +4 via Fate's Favored trait), which can close the gap on being 3/4 BAB quite nicely in the higher levels. And that's not including other buffs you can cast, like Blessing of Fervor, Prayer, and so on.
If you are referring to Thunderfoot, Dr. Dre, it only applies to the overrun maneuver. Did you mean something else?
If you are referring to Thunderfoot, Dr. Dre, it only applies to the overrun maneuver. Did you mean something else?
S%!&, i misread that then. Sorry my bad. I still think spirit guide is a good idea then because stone spirit hex stone stability can give you improved trip and greater trip for free. Which helps aleviate feat concerns a bit although that does make multiclassing worse becuase you need 10 oracle levels to get both so i dont know how it compares with your current idea.
Also your proably going to want a leveraging weapon since it applies double the enhancment bonus of the weapon to both trip and bullrush attempts.
Brawler Dip makes you not have to rely on having such a high Intelligence for Combat Expertise and the improved combat maneuver options. This can free you a lot of points to use on your other attributes to make them better. It also gives you Martial Flexibility, for when you want to Trip/Bull Rush baddies, you can spend Martial Flexibility to make them even better as the situation calls. Only one level would be required in addition to your Lore Warden stuff.
Personally though, I'd try and not focus on more than one maneuver at a time. This is primarily because it's extremely feat intensive, as you've noted, and therefore it becomes problematic to do both effectively. If you're still hell bent on getting both types, I'd consider not having Focused Study and actually use the bonus feat for your maneuvers, especially if you plan to dump Intelligence down with the Brawler dip, making the Skill Focus feats pointless since you have so few skill points to utilize them with.
Depending on the mechanics for your Tripping options, that might be better if it doesn't adhere to size limitations, since Bull Rushing can really screw over your friendly martials from full attacking. (Not relevent until 6+, but still something to consider if you're already 8th level and multiple attacks are commonplace.) Tripping makes the enemies both disadvantaged, and easier for your martials to hit with their attacks (unless they're ranged), so definitely consider it.
Also, don't forget to rely on your personal buffs to help you out. Divine Favor gives you up to a +3 to your CMB checks (or +4 via Fate's Favored trait), which can close the gap on being 3/4 BAB quite nicely in the higher levels. And that's not including other buffs you can cast, like Blessing of Fervor, Prayer, and so on.
Yeah going double feels as a pretty heavy burden so I have considered going just with trip, would sweeping impact still be worth it just for trip or would trying to trip larger creatures be too difficult anyway, seeing as their CMD scales so much faster by size? Good point about the buffs btw, I hadn't thought about them, so that might make the buff lore warden gives less mandatory.
If you are referring to Thunderfoot, Dr. Dre, it only applies to the overrun maneuver. Did you mean something else?S~~!, i misread that then. Sorry my bad. I still think spirit guide is a good idea then because stone spirit hex stone stability can give you improved trip and greater trip for free. Which helps aleviate feat concerns a bit although that does make multiclassing worse becuase you need 10 oracle levels to get both so i dont know how it compares with your current idea.
Also your proably going to want a leveraging weapon since it applies double the enhancment bonus of the weapon to both trip and bullrush attempts.
I'd considered going full spirit guide oracle with the stone mystery and just going for trip, but getting greater trip at level 10 feels like a really long wait for a pretty vital part of the build.
It depends on the mechanics for sweeping impact. If it allows you to trip any creature regardless of size (think Toppling Spell metamagic), I'd do it. If not, I'd advise against it simply because a lot of creatures are going to be bigger than you, almost too big to be tripped because of mechanics (and not because of numbers). As for the size by CMD thing, it's not really the case here. Size gives a +1 or +2 bonus facing Large/Huge creatures, the most common sizes you'll be coming across. A +2 isn't that big of a deal (it adds up, but in the grand scheme of things, isn't the worst problem). The biggest problem is the fact that those creatures end up having 30 or 40 Strength and 20+ Dexterity, giving them upwards of a +15 bonus, while creatures of smaller sizes don't have anywhere near as much of a Strength or Dexterity score.
Though, if you can get access to size increasing effects, like Divine Power, Enlarge Person, etc. it won't be so bad. It just means you have to pre-buff to be able to do your schtick, so hopefully the party can last a round or two while you get set up.
I can assure you that Flying creatures will be the biggest bane of your build set-up, so finding a way to trip airborne creatures (or at the very least, keeping them grounded) will be the most important part of your build besides working towards Greater Trip.
**EDIT** Also don't forget that 3/4 BAB means you can't take things like Greater Trip until 9th level if going pure Oracle, so getting the feat by 10th level isn't as bad as you think.
It depends on the mechanics for sweeping impact. If it allows you to trip any creature regardless of size (think Toppling Spell metamagic), I'd do it. If not, I'd advise against it simply because a lot of creatures are going to be bigger than you, almost too big to be tripped because of mechanics (and not because of numbers). As for the size by CMD thing, it's not really the case here. Size gives a +1 or +2 bonus facing Large/Huge creatures, the most common sizes you'll be coming across. A +2 isn't that big of a deal (it adds up, but in the grand scheme of things, isn't the worst problem). The biggest problem is the fact that those creatures end up having 30 or 40 Strength and 20+ Dexterity, giving them upwards of a +15 bonus, while creatures of smaller sizes don't have anywhere near as much of a Strength or Dexterity score.
Though, if you can get access to size increasing effects, like Divine Power, Enlarge Person, etc. it won't be so bad. It just means you have to pre-buff to be able to do your schtick, so hopefully the party can last a round or two while you get set up.
I can assure you that Flying creatures will be the biggest bane of your build set-up, so finding a way to trip airborne creatures (or at the very least, keeping them grounded) will be the most important part of your build besides working towards Greater Trip.
**EDIT** Also don't forget that 3/4 BAB means you can't take things like Greater Trip until 9th level if going pure Oracle, so getting the feat by 10th level isn't as bad as you think.
Sweeping impact allows for a free action trip after a bull rush and at level 7 and every 4 levels thereafter thereafter the size of creatures you can trip and bull rush increases by one. I was wondering if the size increase allowance was worth taking the revelation. For the full text you can follow this link.
Also thanks for noting the BAB thing, that indeed makes getting it at level 10 a bit better.
I wouldn't get Sweeping Impact for the free action to trip after a bull rush, but the size limitation increase definitely makes it worth it, since a lot of the bigger creatures just cannot be tripped at all. Combined with Divine Power/Enlarge Person, you're much more potent at your job, and can trip creatures of any size. Since the main benefit comes online at 7th level (two steps as an initial benefit is huge), you can delay getting it until you hit your 7th level as Oracle.
The other biggest flaw is that some creatures (snakes/legless creatures, and flight in general) just cannot be tripped whatsoever, but that's a lot more difficult to overcome, or requires tools that simply Tripping cannot solve. Spells that can force creatures to be at ground level would be ideal in combating those issues, though I am unsure of any Paizo-endorsed spells that accomplish this.
I'm curious if you're wed to the idea of being a full Human, since the Suli race may actually be better (and more flavorful) to this sort of build. The reason I'm suggesting it is the +2 to Strength and Charisma (the two most valuable attributes you want), at the cost of -2 Intelligence (your skill points won't be that plentiful anyway), the mass of resistances (combined with the Unscathed character trait and the Elemental Resistance revelation gives you really high resistance to the 4 most common elements in the game), you get Elemental Assault for melee competence (which can be made extremely useful with a feat later down the road), and there's a racial trait that basically makes you both human and outsider (so you're still technically playing a human character).
I wouldn't get Sweeping Impact for the free action to trip after a bull rush, but the size limitation increase definitely makes it worth it, since a lot of the bigger creatures just cannot be tripped at all. Combined with Divine Power/Enlarge Person, you're much more potent at your job, and can trip creatures of any size. Since the main benefit comes online at 7th level (two steps as an initial benefit is huge), you can delay getting it until you hit your 7th level as Oracle.
The other biggest flaw is that some creatures (snakes/legless creatures, and flight in general) just cannot be tripped whatsoever, but that's a lot more difficult to overcome, or requires tools that simply Tripping cannot solve. Spells that can force creatures to be at ground level would be ideal in combating those issues, though I am unsure of any Paizo-endorsed spells that accomplish this.
I'm curious if you're wed to the idea of being a full Human, since the Suli race may actually be better (and more flavorful) to this sort of build. The reason I'm suggesting it is the +2 to Strength and Charisma (the two most valuable attributes you want), at the cost of -2 Intelligence (your skill points won't be that plentiful anyway), the mass of resistances (combined with the Unscathed character trait and the Elemental Resistance revelation gives you really high resistance to the 4 most common elements in the game), you get Elemental Assault for melee competence (which can be made extremely useful with a feat later down the road), and there's a racial trait that basically makes you both human and outsider (so you're still technically playing a human character).
Ooh wow, I had actually kind of forgotten the Suli existed, the amount of flavor combined with an excellent stat spread is such a good fit. I had originally gone human to be able to handle the amount of feats needed to pull it off, but going a less feat heavy build with a Suli is just amazing.
I'm contemplating putting trip as more of an extra option by going Spirit guide for all levels with the stone spirit, swapping stats around a bit to go for 18, 16, 14, 8, 10, 18. Taking power attack and 3x extra revelation. Swapping Dance of whirling water and Sweeping impact for Elemental resistance and Roiling soil. Taking heirloom weapon for something like a scimitar and unscathed for the extra elemental resistance, it might actually work out to something usable.
Would something like that work out or would not having the fighter and brawler levels hamper it too much? Further progression would be picking up two additional revelations along the way together with combat casting or warrior priest and somehow squeezing incremental elemental assault in there somewhere, seems like it would somehow be pretty viable right?
Going trip isn't a bad idea if you have the supplements to make it work. The Elemental Oracle has those supplements with the Sweeping Impact revelation, so it's not like you shouldn't go Tripping. +4 to hit them (while they have a -4 penalty to hit you) is Double+Good, especially when it works against most all enemies.
I think you can at least stand a 1 level dip in Brawler, since this gives you some superficial BAB, the ability to bypass Intelligence requirements for your Trip feats, and Martial Flexibility to get that free "feat whenever you need it" in the middle of combat. Sure, it's a move action to do it, but you can combine that with the casting of a spell (preferably a buff or summon spell via the Elemental Allies revelation), so you can basically super-power the next round's worth of actions.
Also, additional proficiencies. With the Brawler having access to proficiency of an entire weapon group, you can take a weapon, make it with the Versatile Design modification for Close weapons for 500 gold (almost twice as much as Masterwork costs), and boom, you're proficient with it because it's now considered a Close weapon, which you're proficient with. Meaning you can take an exotic weapon like a Fauchard, which is a Reach weapon that has 18-20/X2 crit range, apply the modification, and wield it without penalty. Pretty cool, huh? No need to burn a feat or trait for proficiency, either.
I would suggest the starting stats as follows:
Strength 14 + 2 = 16
Dexterity 14
Constitution 12
Intelligence 8
Wisdom 10
Charisma 16 + 2 = 18
With the level ups, put it into Strength. With the ABP stats, you'll be sitting at 20 Strength and Charisma, while having 14 Dexterity and 12 Constitution. Remember, you're not a primary frontliner, and you'll have your added reach to help protect you from getting hurt by tripping enemies before they reach you. Bonus points for using spells like Elemental Body to increase your threat range to deal with other big baddies safely.
For feats, taking Extra Revelation at 1st level is obvious, since you can't take things like Combat Expertise or Trip unless you get the Brawler level in (which would be 2nd level) due to the BAB requirement. By 3rd level, Combat Expertise would be needed (and then you can take Improved Trip with your Martial Flexibility as needed). Since you can do it 4 times per day, you'll have 4 minutes worth of using the feat, which is the same as having it constantly at that level. 5th level allows Improved Trip (with access to Power Attack or Combat Reflexes via Martial Flexibility, as needed). The key is to use your Martial Flexibility to acquire the next feat you'd want for your build, so you effectively have it without actually spending a feat for it. Warrior Priest isn't too bad, but not necessary (in fact you usually don't want to go first; let the bad guys close the distance, get tripped, and then you full attack them while they're on the ground). Incremental Assault I'd only squeeze in after you get all of your other necessary feats, since using it once per day (usually against an obvious boss fight), timed for when they're tripped, is about all you'd need.
For revelations, starting out with Elemental Resistances and Flowing Step would be huge, since this gives you the super-powered resistances you'd need for leveling up (Resist 9 to the four common elements, meaning most spells will only scratch you, which scales even higher with level), as well as the mobility of a Barbarian with 40 foot movement, which is great when starting with a Longspear (that you are proficient with), eventually moving onto the Fauchard by 2nd or 3rd level, keeping the bad guys away from your dead zone. From there, Sweeping Impact to use Trip on most baddies due to size, and Elemental Allies for summoning elemental creatures in combat as a Standard Action.
If you're worried about getting Extra Revelations versus your standard feats, don't forget to count on the Ring of Revelation item; feats are a lot more precious to your build than magic items, and while it's okay to take Extra Revelations, you don't need to have all of the revelations right away. Some of them (such as Elemental Allies and Sweeping Impact) can wait until such time as you need them. In addition, you have two ring slots, and with ABP included, one of those slots isn't needed for the Big 6, so you can easily fit a Ring of Revelation in addition to another utility ring of your choice. Or two Rings of Revelation, if you're really hankering for it.
Thanks a lot for all your help, I think I'll be going with the 1 level brawler dip, the Versatile design modification is exactly what I needed to prevent taking any fighter levels and it even allows me a spare trait to spend on something flavorful. We even have a smith in the party that's always dying to make something interesting for his friends, so he can have some fun with the weapon modification.
With what I have written up right now I'll be able to use martial flexibility for greater trip at this level, which I can just take as a regular feat at the next one. The combination of abilities really encompasses the feel I want with a fast magical warrior that uses all of the elements to their own advantage. Playing a suli really is an added bonus, it just fits so well with everything.
Really, thanks again, I always feel like I have a pretty high level of system mastery as a GM, but as a player I feel like I miss a lot of the obvious option. Having someone that throws out the right ideas is really useful.