|
Like the title says...I want to make a melee focused character using the Shirren race. I am going to be starting up the Adventure Path here soon, and I am looking for some help making my character not suck :)
Either Soldier or Solarian are the obvious class choices.
With the Shirren -2 to Cha, can you still make a viable Solarian?
Str seems rather underwhelming in Starfinder, is Dex based melee a viable option?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
|
|
Go soldier. Depending on your preference you can go 16 str and 14 dex, or viceversa depending on your choice of range vs melee, and extra point to whatever else. Personally I would do melee, heavy armor and feat focus fire so your team will love you, or skill synergy to get more class skills. Soldiers later on can apply 1.5 of their str to damage.
|
|
I was leaning towards Soldier. The -2 Charisma from Shirren feels like too large a hit for Solarian.
Definitely wanting to go melee and either heavy or power armor.
Not sure what you mean by 'feat focus fire', there is not Focus Fire feat, and the only thing I can find in the book with that name is part of the Sharpshooter fighting style, which is a ranged style.
Some of the feats that jumped out at me would be things like Step Up, Step Up and Strike, Enhanced Resistance, Penetrating Attack, Weapon Focus.
Some that are on my maybe list are things like Adaptive Fighting, Fleet, Coordinated Shot, Lunge, Cleave, Spellbane, Toughness.
I was thinking 18 Str, 13 Dex, 12 Con, 10 Int, 12 Wis, 8 Cha for my starting stats. With either Mercenary or Themeless for my theme, and Blitz as my first fighting style.
If you are committed to playing a Shirren, then a solarian is a sub-optimal choice. That lost point of resolve could be the difference between life and death quite easily, and the already low save DCs on your solar spells will be lower. Unless you're married to a particular class/race concept for narrative reasons, taking a race that dumps your classes' primary stat is a bad idea.
You are correct that str is a pretty bad stat in Starfinder. I made a long post arguing it is in fact the worst stat in the game. Unfortunately, if you want to build melee, it's your only option. There is no dex to damage option, or even dex to hit with melee outside of operative weapons (which are too weak for anyone but an operative with trick attack to use effectively).
You are never going to be very useful in space combat with a str build. You'll make OK gunner with your full BAB, or a passable pilot if you take skill focus in piloting.
Taking the Nimble Moves feat at 5 is a very good idea, as it allows you to use your improved charge through difficult terrain, which opens up a lot of charge lanes, and charge will be your primary mobility tool. Charge as a standard action is the primary reason to take blitz soldier. It makes finding a viable charge lane so much easier when you can take a move action first, and removing the penalties to hit after charging is a big boost to damage.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Solarians, as they are now, have the feeling of a unfinished class. The idea behind the Solarian is great and make it sound like a powerful class. Problem is, it feels like their powers are not all there or they got hit by the nerf stick. Solarians are now waiting to see if that nerf stick was a sledge hammer or a tap hammer.
Huh? Solarian is quite dangerous and effective and I can easily make one with nothing but awesome powers.
|
|
I really like the Shirren, I have always been drawn to the insectoid races (I loved the Thri-Kreen in D&D), and I like the idea of playing an in your face melee character in a high tech world.
For ship combat, I am ok with the idea of being an ok gunner, or even filling the engineer or science officer role (depending on what the rest of the party does). Soldiers get enough feats that I should be able to spare 1-2 for Skill Focus and/or Skill Synergy to boost at least 1 skill to a decent level.
I was thinking 18 Str and 13 Dex to start off with the best melee I can. I haven't read too much about the AP, but I am hoping space combat is not the main focus for the first couple levels.
The Blitz fighting style seemed like the logical choice for a melee fighter, helps you get in closer and faster with the initiative and movement bonus at level 1. Hit & Run seems like it would be half wasted, since I won't be investing in keeping a ranged weapon up to par. Armor storm sounded like another potential, though I would prefer a melee weapon, not unarmed strike.
I could also potentially multi-class into something with more focus on skills to bolster my weaknesses (2 levels in Operative for a few free skill foci and evasion maybe?)
|
|
Hmm...making me re-think things now...maybe take H&R as first style, then Blitz second?
Do grenades count as ranged attacks for Opening Volley? If so, I could see tossing in a grenade to soften them up, then charging into melee to engage them.
On an unrelated note...what would be the best starting gear for a melee build? I was thinking maybe Tactical Pike and Hidden Soldier Armor for armaments?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hit and run is all about the free half move at level 5. With haste and movement boosters, you could be moving 30' plus another 60' from haste and get a full attack at level 12. It really doesn't have much to do with ranged combat, because opening volley is not very good.
I say it's better than blitz at high levels, because a full attack will always be 1 more attack than a charge.
Also, the ability to negate opportunity attacks at level 9 opens up some interesting tactical movement options. Such as moving away from a boss after a full attack.
I'd have to disagree about Hit and Run being better for melee soldiers than Blitz at any level. While there are definitely good abilities in Hit and Run, Blitz just offers too many high value skills.
Level 1: It's no contest. Opening Volley is straight useless for a full melee build. Any ranged attack will have lower to-hit and significantly lower damage. The +2 on the next melee attack will never ever be worth the trade.
On the other hand, Rapid Response gives you 10' more movement and improved initiative, both extremely useful for a melee build.
Level 5: Charge Attack from Blitz will be the bread and butter for melee players in a world where every mook has a laser gun with 60-150' range. Charge without this feature is terrible, costing a full round and imposing a -2 to hit and AC. Turning it into a standard with no penalties means you can move up the 3x your speed in one round and still get an attack off, and having a move action to get yourself into a viable charge lane means you can use it almost every turn. Even better, when you reach level 9 you can make a full attack after your charge.
Nimble Fusillade is nice, but only if you're already within half your move speed of your target. Plus, the Step Up and Strike feat tree, which every melee should be taking anyway, does a similar job. While Nimble Fusillade gives better mobility than Step Up and Strike, there is no feat that does something equivalent to Blitz's Charge Attack.
Level 9: This one I'll give to Hit and Run. While I can see many circumstances when getting 2d6 + level in hp back could save your life, it's a relatively small heal compared to the large health and damage values being thrown around by level 9.
However, the hp you'd save by avoid AoO from Duck and Weave is probably greater than the heal from Keep Fighting. Still, this may not be as valuable in practice as it looks on paper. Without having access to a beastiary, we don't know the ratio of ranged to melee opponents in Starfinder. It's very possible most enemies will be primarily ranged combatants, since ranged is unquestionably better than melee in this system for everything but raw damage (and that's only if melee is making the same number of attacks per round as the ranged, which any rpg veteran knows rarely happens.) If there are typically more ranged enemies, that means AoO will be much less prevalent.
Level 13: Another big win for Blitz. Hit and Run gives you +1 AC when you move. Wooo. From everything we know about high level combat, it's going to be a slug fest with both players and enemies having very high to-hit values. One point of AC is rarely going to make a difference.
What will make a difference is Blitz's Perfect Opportunity denying any movement to enemies you successfully land an AoO on when they try to move away from you. This prevents your DM from being a jerk and realizing that, since you have Step Up and Strike and guarded steps are now useless against you, his NPCs will just eat an AoO to run away from you. Now any successful AoO denies all further movement to the struck enemy. Think about that. At 13, it is literally impossible for an enemy to escape your full attacks unless they get lucky and avoid your AoO.
Level 17: I don't really love either of these abilities, but the Blitz ability is still better for a melee build. Harrying Fire from Hit and Run requires you to spend a full round action making one attack, and if it hits, you grant harrying fire (+2 to the next attack until the start of your next turn). That would be terrible, except you can apply it to blast and automatic fire attacks, giving the debuff to multiple enemies. Good for a late-game soldier with all kinds of heavy ranged weapons. Truly awful for a melee soldier to make a single attack with a full attack action and give a +2 to someone else. If there's anyone else in your party who can do more damage than you in a single attack, and thus be deserving of you giving up two of your attacks for a +2 to one of theirs, you've built your soldier terribly wrong.
Against the Odds from Blitz is underwhelming (gain 2 damage for every enemy within 10 feet of you) but extra damage whose only cost is that you be in melee (where you will always be) is still valuable. Getting a +6 to all three of your attacks in a full attack action if you're near 3 enemies is nothing to sneeze at.
Comparing every ability and how they'd play out in a melee build, I think Blitz is the overwhelming winner. The amount of mobility, control, and damage you'd give up by taking Hit and Run over Blitz is not worth Nimble Fusillade, the only decent melee ability in the whole Hit and Run tree.
|
|
Paying for multiple high level starknives does not sound like a viable option, even with returning you would still have to buy 3+ to be able to make a full attack at higher levels. Somehow I doubt credits will be flowing freely enough for that.
A melee character would almost never need more than one. They're gonna usually attack with it once and then move towards their foe. And you can make it Called or Returning easily enough.
|
|
Paying for multiple high level starknives does not sound like a viable option, even with returning you would still have to buy 3+ to be able to make a full attack at higher levels. Somehow I doubt credits will be flowing freely enough for that.A melee character would almost never need more than one. They're gonna usually attack with it once and then move towards their foe. And you can make it Called or Returning easily enough.
Nicholas mentioned full attacking with throwing weapons, which is why I pointed out the cost that would involve.
I'll probably carry a few grenades to toss at enemies before I close in to melee range instead of trying to keep multiple weapons up to level.
I mainly just need to figure out what feats to take in what order at this point.
|
Something you have to remember in starfinder is the negative penalty no longer dictates your class as much as in Pathfinder for example ysoki gets a negative to str and a bonus to Dex and int . As long as your bonus stats are beneficial to you you take no penalty in boosting your negative up even to max. I feel they make great melee soldiers
|
I theory crafted a Shirren Soldier and my lvl 1 feat was Blind-Fight. With the species already having blindsense 30ft, blind-fight really maximizes.
I would suggest going 16 Str, 14 Dex. Mainly having a Dex for usefulness outside of normal combat. Plus, most decent heavy armors have a max dex of +2. This will also make you a great switch hitter.
Some other feat ideas are weapon focus, versatile focus, and deadly aim. Really maximize on being a weapon jack of all trades. The point of this is that gear is sold at 10% cost so being able to pick up and be great with any weapon would be very useful. In addition, having a wide arsenal of types of weapons would be beneficial when dealing with the random resistances some creatures have.
Lastly, pick up pilot as having max ranks in pilot is always useful to a party. Being able to decently pilot and shoot guns.
My favorite soldier style is bombard at the moment. It gives you free grenades. Plus, at 5th lvl you can add your Str to damage to some ranged aoe attacks (possibly stacking with deadly aim and weapon specialization.)
my thoughts...
|
|
I theory crafted a Shirren Soldier and my lvl 1 feat was Blind-Fight. With the species already having blindsense 30ft, blind-fight really maximizes.
I would suggest going 16 Str, 14 Dex. Mainly having a Dex for usefulness outside of normal combat. Plus, most decent heavy armors have a max dex of +2. This will also make you a great switch hitter.
Some other feat ideas are weapon focus, versatile focus, and deadly aim. Really maximize on being a weapon jack of all trades. The point of this is that gear is sold at 10% cost so being able to pick up and be great with any weapon would be very useful. In addition, having a wide arsenal of types of weapons would be beneficial when dealing with the random resistances some creatures have.
Lastly, pick up pilot as having max ranks in pilot is always useful to a party. Being able to decently pilot and shoot guns.
My favorite soldier style is bombard at the moment. It gives you free grenades. Plus, at 5th lvl you can add your Str to damage to some ranged aoe attacks (possibly stacking with deadly aim and weapon specialization.)
my thoughts...
Deadly Aim and Versatile focus on a character that will almost never be firing a gun feels like a huge waste of feats. As does maxing ranks in Piloting on a low Dex character that only gets 4 ranks per level. Bombard would be cool...if I were doing a heavy weapons/explosives character...not so much for a melee gladiator type.
Deadly Aim and Versatile focus on a character that will almost never be firing a gun feels like a huge waste of feats. As does maxing ranks in Piloting on a low Dex character that only gets 4 ranks per level. Bombard would be cool...if I were doing a heavy weapons/explosives character...not so much for a melee gladiator type.I theory crafted a Shirren Soldier and my lvl 1 feat was Blind-Fight. With the species already having blindsense 30ft, blind-fight really maximizes.
I would suggest going 16 Str, 14 Dex. Mainly having a Dex for usefulness outside of normal combat. Plus, most decent heavy armors have a max dex of +2. This will also make you a great switch hitter.
Some other feat ideas are weapon focus, versatile focus, and deadly aim. Really maximize on being a weapon jack of all trades. The point of this is that gear is sold at 10% cost so being able to pick up and be great with any weapon would be very useful. In addition, having a wide arsenal of types of weapons would be beneficial when dealing with the random resistances some creatures have.
Lastly, pick up pilot as having max ranks in pilot is always useful to a party. Being able to decently pilot and shoot guns.
My favorite soldier style is bombard at the moment. It gives you free grenades. Plus, at 5th lvl you can add your Str to damage to some ranged aoe attacks (possibly stacking with deadly aim and weapon specialization.)
my thoughts...
Deadly Aim applies to all weapons, not just ranged ones. Basically consider it the Pathfinder feats Power Attack & Deadly Aim combined into one feat.
You can't quickdraw and full attack. Unless I missed something in the rules, quickdraw is a swift action and you can't swift and full attack in the same round.
Another angle for STR soldiers is to carry starknives. Thrown weapons use STR for hit and damage. You can get a full attack with thrown weapons with quickdraw. It's an option to get a ranged attack.
Like the title says...I want to make a melee focused character using the Shirren race. I am going to be starting up the Adventure Path here soon, and I am looking for some help making my character not suck :)
Either Soldier or Solarian are the obvious class choices.
With the Shirren -2 to Cha, can you still make a viable Solarian?
Str seems rather underwhelming in Starfinder, is Dex based melee a viable option?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
A shirren won't be an optimal solarian, but they can probably do OK. Take a theme that provides a +1 to Str, Dex, Wis, or Cha. Starting 14 Str, 12 Dex, 12 Con, 10 Int, 13 Wis, 12 Cha; +2 to Str, Dex, Wis, and Cha at 5th level, plus purchase a Personal Upgrade (+2 Str), and take Connection Inkling (probably psychokinetic hand, stabilize at will; wisp ally is both thematic and useful).
For a Dex-based melee soldier, the issue is that the operative weapons (the only melee weapons that use Dex instead of Str for adding to the attack bonus) only add 1/2 character level from Weapon Specialization (instead of full character level like every other melee weapon). They make an adequate backup for a primarily ranged soldier (or a kasatha Hit-and-Run switch-hitter with two pistols/one longarm/one heavy weapon and two operative weapons), but they lose too much damage to work well for a Dex-based melee soldier.
A melee-based shirren soldier with staring scores of 16 Str, 14 Dex, 12 Con, 10 Int, 12 Wis, 8 Cha (plus one more point somewhere, either from theme or "left over") should be perfectly adequate, however.
|
|
Here is what I have for my build so far:
Shirren Male
Themeless Soldier (Blitz Style)
Str: 18
Dex: 13
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 8
Feat: Step Up
Themeless Skill choice: Culture (to make use of the Shirren +2)
Skill Ranks: Athletics, Culture, Engineering, and Survival
Starting gear: Longsword, Hidden Soldier Armor, Comm Unit, Tier 1 Computer (Miniaturized, Self-Charging), Backpack (Consumer), Engineering Toolkit, Flashlight
You could do a solarium with the 14, 14, 14, 11, 10, 10 array...
|
|
I'd go with an actual Theme and grab Skill Synergy for say, Culture and Perception.
There aren't quite enough good Combat Feats to fill all your slots from Soldier, which IMO means you should buy non-combat Feats with your normal Feats. Step Up can wait for 2nd level.
And many themes are quite good.
|
How's this for a trick to take advantage of the shirren's racial blindsight? Low-tier computer, miniaturized enough to be wearable, with the Artificial Personality upgrade and a Control Module with a slaved detonator. Link the detonator to a smoke grenade on a bandolier or something, and you have a hands-free (thanks to voice command), free-action-trigger smokescreen. Works even better in a party of all shirren...
|
|
The 14,14,14,10,10,10 array would still leave me low on Charisma for a Solarian after the -2 for the Shirren race.
Hmmm...The Mercenary theme was the only one that really came close to fitting the character concept, though the Ace Pilot's Lone Wolf ability does look awful nice. I could go Ace Pilot, switch my rank in engineering to piloting, and do as you suggested and grab Skill Synergy for my level 1 feat.
The Icon theme gives a +1 Cha...which is useless for this build as a soldier. Maybe if I were going to try for the Solarian, but I have pretty well written that off for my Shirren.
So...planning out feats...how about:
1 Skill Synergy (Culture, Perception)
2 Step Up
3 Spellbane
4 Weapon Focus: Advanced Melee
5 Enhanced Resistance
6 Step Up and Strike
7 Blind-Fight
8 Coordinated Shot
9 Toughness
10 Deadly Aim
11 Nimble Moves
12 Penetrating Attack
13+ ??
No it's a quick pick array, you allocate them however you want, so it can be str, dex and Cha.
|
|
How's this for a trick to take advantage of the shirren's racial blindsight? Low-tier computer, miniaturized enough to be wearable, with the Artificial Personality upgrade and a Control Module with a slaved detonator. Link the detonator to a smoke grenade on a bandolier or something, and you have a hands-free (thanks to voice command), free-action-trigger smokescreen. Works even better in a party of all shirren...
The only thing the Shirren's blindsense does is remove the stealth bonus for any form of vision based stealth. It does nothing against the concealment bonus/penalty for not being able to see your opponent. Blinding yourself would still be just as detrimental as it would to anyone else.
It's still not an optimum build, but it helps out a lot of you really wanted a Shiren solarion
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The 14,14,14,10,10,10 array would still leave me low on Charisma for a Solarian after the -2 for the Shirren race.
If doing Quick Pick Arrays, race and Theme ability points are ignored. Still not the route I'd go, but it's true.
Hmmm...The Mercenary theme was the only one that really came close to fitting the character concept, though the Ace Pilot's Lone Wolf ability does look awful nice. I could go Ace Pilot, switch my rank in engineering to piloting, and do as you suggested and grab Skill Synergy for my level 1 feat.
That seems like a solid call. You'll be a pretty decent gunner if nothing else, and can Pilot well enough for most purposes.
The Icon theme gives a +1 Cha...which is useless for this build as a soldier. Maybe if I were going to try for the Solarian, but I have pretty well written that off for my Shirren.
This is very true.
So...planning out feats...how about:
1 Skill Synergy (Culture, Perception)
2 Step Up
3 Spellbane
4 Weapon Focus: Advanced Melee
5 Enhanced Resistance
6 Step Up and Strike
7 Blind-Fight
8 Coordinated Shot
9 Toughness
10 Deadly Aim
11 Nimble Moves
12 Penetrating Attack
13+ ??
Deadly Aim is basically never worth it mathematically, I'd grab Nimble Moves there instead. Or at 8th instead of Coordinated Shot, which doesn't seem worth it either for a melee build.
Then somewhere in there I might grab a Save Feat like Iron Will, or a Skill Focus if you actually want to be really good at some particular skill (like Piloting).
An example progression might be something like:
1 Skill Synergy (Culture, Perception)
2 Step Up
3 Spellbane
4 Weapon Focus: Advanced Melee
5 Enhanced Resistance
6 Step Up and Strike
7 Skill Focus (Pilot)
8 Blind-Fight
9 Toughness
10 Nimble Moves
11 Iron Will
12 Penetrating Attack
Your Ability ups at both 5th and 10th would go into Str and Dex, plus whatever other skills you want (Con and Wis raise Saves, Int raises number of skills, which is good). Your Upgrades go Str then Dex, then pobably Int or Wis.
That gives you something like +23 Pilot at 12th, which isn't up there with a maxed Operative Ace Pilot (who can have +27 at the same level), but remains respectable. And a +16 Gunnery, which is again respectable.
You could obviously go with a different skill for Skill Focus, but Pilot works fine.
|
|
I had thought Coordinated shot would be a boon to the rest of the party, giving everyone else a +1 to hit on anything I am threatening. Not sure how valuable a meager +1 will be at level 8+ though.
From what I have read, it looks like the AP is set to wrap up around level 12, which is between some of the soldier's key levels...think it might be worth taking something like a 2 level dip into Operative to gain some more skills, Operatives Edge, and Evasion?
|
|
I had thought Coordinated shot would be a boon to the rest of the party, giving everyone else a +1 to hit on anything I am threatening. Not sure how valuable a meager +1 will be at level 8+ though.
You make a point, and bonuses are never wasted in Starfinder (you never start hitting things on a 2). This one really depends on party makeup, I suppose. You can readily skip Iron Will and rearrange things for it if you like, though.
From what I have read, it looks like the AP is set to wrap up around level 12, which is between some of the soldier's key levels...think it might be worth taking something like a 2 level dip into Operative to gain some more skills, Operatives Edge, and Evasion?
Nah. You definitely want the level 11 extra attack, which is probably the biggest combat bonus of being a Soldier, and one level of Operative just isn't worth it, IMO.
If you want a slightly greater focus on skills (or at least one), you could swap Spellbane and Skill Focus in the Feat listing.
|
|
How's this for a trick to take advantage of the shirren's racial blindsight? Low-tier computer, miniaturized enough to be wearable, with the Artificial Personality upgrade and a Control Module with a slaved detonator. Link the detonator to a smoke grenade on a bandolier or something, and you have a hands-free (thanks to voice command), free-action-trigger smokescreen. Works even better in a party of all shirren...The only thing the Shirren's blindsense does is remove the stealth bonus for any form of vision based stealth. It does nothing against the concealment bonus/penalty for not being able to see your opponent. Blinding yourself would still be just as detrimental as it would to anyone else.
Sorry, should have reiterated the utility of Blindfight for a melee shirren. You can lay down smoke as a free action, and use your blind sense to keep track of targets while being protected from enemy ranged attacks.
Has anyone done the math for a Dex based Solarian, full attacking with Operative weapons, and the difference Multi-Weapon fighting feat in combo with Solarion's fixed damage boosts of plasma sheath and photon mode would have on the average damage output?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Has anyone done the math for a Dex based Solarian, full attacking with Operative weapons, and the difference Multi-Weapon fighting feat in combo with Solarion's fixed damage boosts of plasma sheath and photon mode would have on the average damage output?
As a matter of fact, there is a rather long debate in This Thread about trying to make a Dex based Solarian.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's been done, the damage output goes to about half I believe.
Has anyone done the math for a Dex based Solarian, full attacking with Operative weapons, and the difference Multi-Weapon fighting feat in combo with Solarion's fixed damage boosts of plasma sheath and photon mode would have on the average damage output?As a matter of fact, there is a rather long debate in This Thread about trying to make a Dex based Solarian.
Just did a quick word search here to see if anyone had mentioned the "Multi-weapon" feat and didn't find anything so I wasn't sure if it had been brought up. I also just tried to search that thread too and couldn't find the words either. But definitely not going to read through 300 posts of it! haha
It's been done, the damage output goes to about half I believe.
That's too bad though. Glad other people like to do the math though!
Bummer because without the quick pick arrays a lot of class/race combos are not very good. The quick picks allow a version of stat dumping without it getting crazy.