When using snapping turtle style I understand it gives +1 to AC. But say you are grappling someone, do you now lose that +1 to AC until you are no longer grappling?
You can attempt a grapple without both hands at a -4. This would free up the hand to keep the bonus from Snapping Turtle Style.
If you are grappling with both hands, you lose the AC bonus. If you are using one hand to grapple, you retain the shield bonus.
The legend returns, its been a long time. Perhaps I just haven't been asking the right (grappling related) questions :)
You can attempt a grapple without both hands at a -4. This would free up the hand to keep the bonus from Snapping Turtle Style.
Oh nice didn't know that, thanks
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Would a Hangman Vigilante grappling with a noose be considered to be grappling with one hand for this?
At 2nd level, a hangman can wield a rope noose as a net or whip, and also can use it to grapple, gaining the benefits of Improved Grapple with it. He takes no penalty on combat maneuver checks with the noose for having the noose in his hand, but he still doesn’t add any bonuses he might have with a net or whip (such as weapon enhancement bonuses or benefits from Weapon Focus) on the check. He can spend 1 minute to weave a magical or masterwork net or whip into a noose, thereafter gaining these benefits with it.
This ability replaces the 2nd-level vigilante talent.
I have many grappling related questions if Bruno is coming out of retirement.
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Bruno, a handsome and beautiful tetori, believes that you would take no penalty.
It seems analogous to the Equipment Trick (Net):
Grappling Net (Improved Grapple): When you attempt a grapple combat maneuver check against a foe entangled by a net whose trailing rope you control, you do not take a penalty on the grapple combat maneuver check for not having two hands free, and you gain a +4 bonus on the check. If you successfully pin the target while it is still entangled by the net, you can use the net to tie up the target as a swift action.
And Greater Whip Mastery:
Free Hands: You take no penalty on your combat maneuver check for having fewer than two hands free when you use your whip to grapple.
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But would you get the AC bonus from Snapping Turtle Style when you have someone grappled? My sense is probably not, since it doesn't say your other hand is free during the grapple. Just that you don't take the penalty. I'm going Snapping Turtle Style to get Snapping Turtle Clutch. I'm just not sure how useful the Snapping Turtle Style feat will be or if I should look for another way to pick up a shield bonus.
It's a Hangman Vigilante 8/Strangler Brawler 3 build.
Could anyone tell me if the +1 Shield Bonus to AC from snapping turtle style applies to CMD and touch attacks also? or is it just strictly normal AC only?
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So, the main thing is figuring out what exactly I add to which damage rolls. Here's the basic build, then all the questions.
CG/CN Dhampir
STR 18 (+2 racial) DEX 14 CON 12 (-2 racial) INT 10 WIS 10 CHA 12 (+2 racial)
1 V1) ST:Guise of Life, F:Improved Unarmed Strike, Hidden Strike 1D4/1D8
2 V2) Hangman’s Noose
3 B1) F: Improved Grapple, Strangle +1d6, Martial Flexibility 4/day, Martial Training, Brawler’s Cunning
4 B2) BF: Snapping Turtle Style, Strangle +2d6, Practiced Strangler, +1 STR
5 V3) F: Power Attack (Swap to Toughness or Snapping Turtle Clutch at 9th), Bound to Truth, Hidden Strike 2D4/2D8, ST: Social Grace (Diplomacy)
6 V4) Twisted Rope
7 B3) F: Greater Grapple, Maneuver Training (Grapple) +1
8 V5) BF: Chokehold, Hidden Strike +3d4/3d8, ST: Street Smarts, +1 STR
9 V6) F: Body Shield, VT: Shield of Blades (grants Power Attack and lets me swap 5th level feat for something else)
10 V7) Hidden Strike +4d4/4d8, ST: Quick Change
11 V8) F: Rapid Grappler, VT: Foe Collision
Traits: Adopted: Bred For War, Fashionable
I would use Martial Flexibility to pick up Snapping Turtle Clutch as needed when I qualify for it. Or something to boost damage if grappling isn't an option.
Buy Anaconda's coils around 9th.
Ok, so skipping all the way to 11th level. My attack sequence is:
Round 1
Standard-> Grapple-> Constrict
Move-> Maintain to Pin-> Constrict
Swift-> Maintain to Damage-> Constrict
Round 2
Maintain to Damage 3 times. Constrict 3 times. Repeat until they stop moving.
I have several different sources of damage:
Unarmed 1d3 or Fangs 1d3 or Armor Spikes 1d6
Strangle Sneak Attack 2d6
Hidden Strike 4d4
Constrict 1d6
Questions:
I constrict on every grapple check, correct?
Does that include the grapple check as part of Body Shield or Snapping Turtle Clutch?
Do I add Power Attack to Constrict damage? Sneak Attack? Hidden Strike (once they are pinned)?
On the check to Pin, I deal Sneak Attack damage, correct? But no power attack or strength or anything else?
Once my opponent is pinned, they are denied dex. So on a check to damage, do I add Power Attack, Sneak Attack, and Hidden Strike?
I'll spare you the Armor Spikes question. Basically there are posts out there suggesting you deal an extra 1d6 on every grapple check. Asking around, though, I think it's more often ruled that you can only use them in place of another weapon when grappling to deal damage.
At 11th level, I may start using Martial Flexibility to pick up Pinning KO. If I use my unarmed strike to deal nonlethal, what bonuses double? Damage Die? Strength? Power Attack? Not any of the precision damage, right?
Thanks for your time in advance.
EDIT : And sorry for the length. I figured I'd just get all of the questions out there. Don't feel you have to answer them all if they are time consuming to figure out. I'm just having a hard time figuring out what triggers something applying to constrict vs a grapple to damage.
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Bruno take shot at answering!
First, the unasked question, can you Grapple/Greater Grapple/Rapid Grapple in the same turn? Since you're Level 11, I'm guessing your GMs rule you can. So, hooray for you!
James Jacobs, NOT A RULE GUY, said yes.
However, there's never been an official FAQ or clarification either way. This is more a warning for grapplers to expect table variation and Bruno has seen it both ways during his time.
Yes, you constrict on every success grapple check (including Body Shield and Snapping Turtle Clutch).
If you grappled to maintain with power attack, chose the damage option, it would be -1 CMB/+2 damage to my unarmed damage. Sneak Attack is a bonus added to the initial attack and wouldn't get another instance of PA. Constrict uses your melee attack damage and would get PA applied.
On the Grapple check to pin you'd get your constrict and Brawler's strangle. PA would apply to your constrict damage.
Once they are pinned, you'd get PA on the initial grapple to do damage and constrict, but not SA or Hidden Strike.
With Pinning KO, everything doubles but the precision damage...which is why with a well-built constricting grappler, anything susceptible to constriction and non-lethal damage is donezo once Pinning KO comes online.
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Hmmm... I think I follow everything except this part:
Once they are pinned, you'd get PA on the initial grapple to do damage and constrict, but not SA or Hidden Strike.
Strangler's Sneak Attack says you add it whenever you maintain a grapple to damage or pin. Shouldn't I get it when I maintain to damage whether they are pinned or not?
Hidden strike is a trickier one. It says you get it whenever you make a melee attack while the target is denied dex. A grapple to damage gets into ambiguous territory there. But Power Attack is also added onto a melee attack, so if it's included, shouldn't Hidden Strike be (provided they are denied dex like with pinned)? Isn't hidden strike part of my attack damage when the criteria is met?
I had not seen Mark's post. This is for PFS, and the character is currently only 2nd level, so I'm trying to make sure I don't take options that don't work. If I can't make multiple grapple checks in a round, that slows things down a little. But I could then do something like:
Round 1->Grapple/Constrict
Round 2->Swift Maintain to Pin/Sneak Attack/Constrict->Full Attack with Unarmed Strikes
There would then be no question that hidden strike would apply to the attacks, but Strangle/Sneak Attack would not apply to the attacks, since they aren't grapple checks anymore.
Does that sound correct? I'll have to work up what the damage would look like for a full round of that.
If you are grappling with both hands, you lose the AC bonus. If you are using one hand to grapple, you retain the shield bonus.
When I make a standard grapple attempt on an enemy is it assumed it is one handed? Do I take penalties for attempting to grapple my enemy with one hand if my other hand is free? If I have a sword in hand I understand I would lose snapping turtle style but would that incur any penalties when initiating the grapple?
Answering my own question it seems if I don't have two free hands I incur a -4 penalty to initiate a grapple?
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Shouldn't I get it when I maintain to damage whether they are pinned or not?
Bruno apologize he missed that. You are correct.
Bruno think we talking past each other (which can happen when talking about so many damage riders and bonuses--Bruno only talking about Power Attack in previous example. From the rest of yoru comments, it seem you have strong grasp of your options and interactions and see no issue with anything you posited (re: hidden strike)
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Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for taking a look at it. Just finding out about the Mark Seifter post is a huge help, and the help with constrict, as well as all of the other input.
It's unfortunate he rules Greater/Rapid Grapple that way. I'm pretty sure there's a PFS scenario where the tactics are to grapple and pin in the first round. That might have only been stated by the author in the GM forum, and not in the scenario itself. I don't remember.
At any rate, I'll miss out on a little damage using attacks instead of grappling, and I'll have to hit AC instead of CMD, which may be a little harder in some circumstances. But I'm glad to know how it works before I plan the whole character around multiple checks a round.
If you haven't looked through the Vigilante class in detail, it has some really fun things to help grapple builds. Even when you're not trying to make a slightly underpowered archetype work. There's a talent that gives Improved Grapple plus an additional bonus (Favored Maneuver, I think it's called). One that functions similar to Body Shield. And Foe Collision, which I'm planning to take, that lets you deal automatic non-lethal hidden strike damage to an enemy adjacent to anyone you deal hidden strike damage to, because you're smashing one enemy into another. I'm hoping it turns out to be a fun character. I'm excited about it.
Bringing things back on topic, Mark's comment about Snapping Turtle Clutch makes getting the feat even more valuable than it already was, as that's the path to grapple/pin in the span of a single round.
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Hmmm again... Reading back through this here, and looking at Mark's post and your thread from 2014 about Grapple/Greater Grapple/Rapid Grapple, I think I'm confused again.
Mark says that you can't maintain on the round that you start the grapple. Ok, that's clear. But he doesn't say that you can't maintain more than once in a round. So if I grapple someone in the first round, can I then, in the second round:
Standard action Maintain/Constrict/Pin
Move Action Maintain/Damage/Constrict
Swift Action Maintain/Damage/Constrict?
Or would I have to
Move Action Maintain/Pin/Constrict
Swift Maintain/Damage/Constrict
Standard Unarmed Strike
Quoting from your thread
SEQUENCE B
ROUND ONE
1) Standard action Grapple (grapple foe)ROUND TWO
1) Move action Greater Grapple (pin foe)
2) Swift Rapid Grapple (tie up foe)
3) Standard/move action (TBD)
Is that the correct sequence, meaning I would have to make a normal Unarmed Strike attack with my standard, and not a third grapple check for the round?
Or can I make three grapple checks in a round, provided I'm not initiating the grapple that round?
One thing I was definitely getting wrong is that I can only use a swift to perform a grapple check after using a Move action to maintain, so I could never swift maintain then full attack with unarmed strikes. Which is kind of a bummer, because I figured out how to work a level of Unchained Monk into the build, replacing a level of Brawler, so now I'll actually have flurry. It'll still be useful when I can't grapple things.