Cavalier's Challenge vs. Silent Image


Rules Questions


Afternoon all,

I intended for this to be a quick question, but after having investigated a few similarish threads to try and find an answer, I fear it may not be so cut and dry after all.

Here is the scenario:

Cavalier spots the potential BBEG, who suddenly appears in the room as though teleporting (our brave hero has no Knowledges, and his Intelligence bonus is a modest +1). Being a forthright sort of chap, he levels his blade and issues his Cavalier’s Challenge to the dastardly foe, offering them the chance to put up their arms or die by the sword.
This prompts a Will Save, which he passes, revealing the BBEG to actually be a Silent Image. There is much cursing at the tricksy ways of the magic-user.

My question is: has the Cavalier just “wasted” one of his Challenges Per Day? We’re only Level 6 currently, and I feel we’re in a multiple encounter sort of setting where I might genuinely need that Challenge.

Rules As Written, I can’t see a doggone thing that enlightens me in the rules for Challenge or Silent Image, and I’ve looked through the below threads already hoping for some help. I can’t find anything that firmly concludes that I have wasted a Challenge, but then I also can’t find anything exclusively saying that I have.

I’m not a fan of Rules As Interpreted outside of group-specific houserules, because that way madness lies, but as that’s all we’ve had to work with thus far, our GM has come to the conclusion that as I have used the ability, it is used up. However, the Cavalier now knows that the magic-user has some skill with illusions, and the Cavalier will be more cautious in future.

Once I push the “IT’S NOT FAIR” voice to the back of my mind, this actually makes the most practical sense to me as a houserule, but as I’m also planning to play a Halfling cavalier riding a velociraptor in a campaign where the GM has a distinct preference for illusionist trickery and a penchant for murdering unusual characters, so I’d like to find something more concrete.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q8xo?Illusion-Spells#6
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ns0c?Project-Image-Smite-Evil#3
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tl5y?Does-a-characterplayer-know-if-his-abilit y#1
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lmcg?Cavalier-Challenge#1
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2km7j?Cavaliers-Challenge#1

These are the threads I’ve investigated thus far.

Hope I didn’t take up too much of your time!

Od.


The description of challlenge ability says that cavalier can challenge "a foe" or "a target". While there is no precise definition, what can be a foe or a target, I'd say that an illusion created with Silent Image can.

Using illusions to make the opponets waste their attacks and abilities is a valid strategy, whether used by PCs or by NPCs. If you know you are facing an illusions it would be smart not to waste your most powerful abiliteies until you confirm that you're not facing an illusion.


You wasted your challenge yes. And Yeah, it sucks. But it came with a lesson. Maybe not so bad.

But it was, in your mind, a valid target. So it was a valid challenge.


Hmm.

Could a wizard who hadn't yet made his saving throw cast magic missile on the image?

Could a wizard who had made his saving throw cast magic missile on the image?


You didn't 'waste' your challenge, you used your challenge to 'interact' with the illusion, which allowed you a will save to disbelieve. Now whether this was worth it or a good use of the challenge is both situational and debatable, but you certainly did receive a benefit from your action, and it took a swift action instead of a standard as most other interactions would, and that leaves you better able to prepare for the real threat.

I don't know that their is any hard and fast rule that says 'this is how it works' but it is certainly the way I would have ruled as well.


Yes and no.

Silent image is a figment. You would believe the figment until you make a save.

A figment remains after disbelief although as a translucent image. While that means you could target that image with spells, it's no longer a "creature" to you. So it can't be hit with a magic missile as that spell can't target it.


Gonna let this one simmer a bit. I smell a hint of madness, but I haven't tracked it down yet.

Sovereign Court

The interesting question is whether you take the -2 penalty to AC if you haven't disbelieved the image. I'd say yes, because the challenge ability explains that it's because you're focusing all your attention on Das BBEG. Once you make your save you'd lose the penalty.

As for disbelieving figments - there's basically two stages to it. One is when your trusty buddy tells you that it's fake, you fail your save anyway and still can't see through it. You're not mind-controlled and maybe you trust your buddy more than your eyes (knowing he's got True Seeing running perhaps). So you can decide not to spend any more effort on the alleged image. But you still can't see through it - only if you pass your saving throw can you see through the image. Which can be important when interacting with illusory walls.

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