Spell Perfection + Arcane Strike


Rules Questions


Do they stack?
For example, a 15th level arcane caster with Spell Perfection (Flame Blade) uses Arcane Strike to add +4 damage to his flame blade. Is the damage doubled to +8?


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I would say it does not because spell perfection only affects the spells and feats that interact with the spell. Arcane strike is not actually interacting directly with the spell, but rather with your attack when using the spell.


Ah yes, but it adds a "set numerical bonus" to the spell, and that's all Spell Perfection really cares about. And if I remember correctly, Weapon Specialization also works with Spell Perfection, despite interaction with the attack, rather than the weapon. But I can see your point, since Arcane Strike doesn't specifially call out a scimitar or other such weapon-like spell weapon.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

References:
Flame Blade
Spell Perfection
Arcane Strike

It's not clear to me that Arcane Strike can even affect a Flame Blade because it's not certain that blazing beam of red-hot fire, despite being WIELDED like a scimitar, can be enhanced that way. Let's assume that it can.

Arcane Strike enhances weapons, not spells. A spell or spell-like ability can PRODUCE a weapon (such as Force Athame (Sp) or Icicle Dagger) and that produced weapon can (probably) be affected by Arcane Strike, but Arcane Strike is not modifying the spell itself. Arcane Strike is modifying the weapon produced by the spell.

tldr: I agree with Mysterious Stranger.


Oh right, there was this bit about flame blade being like a scimitar for everything except when it comes to actually being a weapon. Totally forgot. ^^'

In that case, yeah, it won't work. Though in a home game, I'd just rule that you use your arcane power to 'fan the flames', so to speak.

Though what about Icicle Dagger and other spells that create actual weapons? They obviously work with Arcane Strike, but can you Spell Perfection those?


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nope, it's not modifying the spell. It's just like how maximized wouldn't do anything to the flame blade. The spell creates the blade, what you do after that isn't the spell anymore.


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SlimGauge wrote:

References:

Flame Blade
Spell Perfection
Arcane Strike

It's not clear to me that Arcane Strike can even affect a Flame Blade because it's not certain that blazing beam of red-hot fire, despite being WIELDED like a scimitar, can be enhanced that way. Let's assume that it can.

Arcane Strike enhances weapons, not spells. A spell or spell-like ability can PRODUCE a weapon (such as Force Athame (Sp) or Icicle Dagger) and that produced weapon can (probably) be affected by Arcane Strike, but Arcane Strike is not modifying the spell itself. Arcane Strike is modifying the weapon produced by the spell.

tldr: I agree with Mysterious Stranger.

FAQ wrote:

Ray: Do rays count as weapons for the purpose of spells and effects that affect weapons?

Yes. (See also this FAQ item for a similar question about rays and weapon feats.)

For example, a bard's inspire courage says it affects "weapon damage rolls," which is worded that way so don't try to add the bonus to a spell like fireball. However, rays are treated as weapons, whether they're from spells, a monster ability, a class ability, or some other source, so the inspire courage bonus applies to ray attack rolls and ray damage rolls.

The same rule applies to weapon-like spells such as flame blade, mage's sword, and spiritual weapon--effects that affect weapons work on these spells.

Effects that affect weapons are explicitly applied to Flame Blade.

The ability to apply Spell Perfection to the damage from Arcane Strike is iffy. I would normally say no, but Weapon Focus is included in the indefinite list of effects modified. If Weapon Focus is included, logically Weapon Specialization should be as well, which leaves a door open to argue Arcane Strike should be allowed.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

Arcane Strike does nothing to spells, it only affects weapons. You can't Arcane Strike up your Magic Missiles, for example. You can arcane strike up your Icicle Dagger or Flame Blade, but that's not going to be affected by Spell Perfection. The Flame Blade/Icicle Dagger must already exist (the spell completed) to be Arcane Strike'd up.


BUT: Weapon Focus is specifically called out by Spell Perfection and isn't part of the spell as it is cast.
Similarly, Spell Penetration wouldn't be doubled for a flame blade, if it is only doubled when the spell is cast, rather than when you hit with the spell.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

Weapon Focus requires no action and is "always on".
Arcane Strike is a swift action and requires the weapon to be affected exist and be in your possession at the time the swift action is used.


Yes, but I don't see how that makes a difference, as both provide a set numerical bonus, which is the only thing Spell Perfection cares about.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

Ok, look at it this way. Casting Flame Blade is a standard action. Invoking Arcane Strike is a swift action. They are not simultaneous.

If I try to use Arcane Strike first, the flame blade doesn't exist yet, so I can't affect it.
If I cast Flame Blade, the spell must be complete before the flame blade comes in to existence. THEN I can use Arcane Strike on it to enhance it, but only once the Flame Blade spell is done.

You may not agree. That's fine. Ask your GM.


SlimGauge wrote:
Arcane Strike does nothing to spells, it only affects weapons. You can't Arcane Strike up your Magic Missiles, for example. You can arcane strike up your Icicle Dagger or Flame Blade, but that's not going to be affected by Spell Perfection. The Flame Blade/Icicle Dagger must already exist (the spell completed) to be Arcane Strike'd up.

Read the quoted FAQ.

Effects applied to weapons are explicitly useable with Flame Blade.

FAQ wrote:
The same rule applies to weapon-like spells such as flame blade, mage's sword, and spiritual weapon--effects that affect weapons work on these spells.
SlimGauge wrote:
Ok, look at it this way. Casting Flame Blade is a standard action. Invoking Arcane Strike is a swift action. They are not simultaneous.

Weapon Focus is not simultaneous. It would be applied to every attack made with the flame blade for the duration of the spell.


I think where SlimGauge and I differ is whether Spell Perfection is an effect that applies once when the spell is cast, or kicks in whenever something that could be doubled by it comes into effect.

If the former, then no, Arcane Strike isn't doubled. It works with flame blade, yes, but isn't doubled. If the latter, then it is doubled.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
VarisianViscount wrote:

I think where SlimGauge and I differ is whether Spell Perfection is an effect that applies once when the spell is cast, or kicks in whenever something that could be doubled by it comes into effect.

If the former, then no, Arcane Strike isn't doubled. It works with flame blade, yes, but isn't doubled. If the latter, then it is doubled.

You did a better job stating our positions than I did. Thank you.

"Arcane Strike works with Flame Blade, but isn't doubled by Spell Perfection" is my position.

Grand Lodge

so I cast flame blade. with my lvl 1 brawler DIP and martial versatility I get weapon focus after casting the spell.
based on your readings it shouldn't be doubled...
but it is.

what about blooded arcane strike (bloodrager feat, having arcane strike always on) ?


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Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

I think we're arguing about what is "an aspect of the spell".

If you cast a spell with "Effect: Ray" then the ray is most certainly an aspect of the spell. The damage the ray does is defined by the spell and certainly Weapon Focus (Ray) will apply and be doubled. Cast a Spell Perfection Ray of Frost and WF(Ray) will be doubled.

If you cast Icicle Dagger, you get an ice dagger. The icicle doesn't do any damage just from casting the spell, you need to attack with the resulting dagger. The attack chance for the dagger is determined by the wielder's BAB and strength (unless he's using finesse), not by the caster's casting stats. The damage this dagger does is determined not by the spell, but by the caster/wielder's size and strength. Weapon Focus (Dagger) will apply, but I don't think it will be doubled because the dagger's damage isn't "an aspect of the spell".

I could be wrong, of course, but that's how I see it.


SlimGauge wrote:

I think we're arguing about what is "an aspect of the spell".

If you cast a spell with "Effect: Ray" then the ray is most certainly an aspect of the spell. The damage the ray does is defined by the spell and certainly Weapon Focus (Ray) will apply and be doubled. Cast a Spell Perfection Ray of Frost and WF(Ray) will be doubled.

If you cast Icicle Dagger, you get an ice dagger. The icicle doesn't do any damage just from casting the spell, you need to attack with the resulting dagger. The attack chance for the dagger is determined by the wielder's BAB and strength (unless he's using finesse), not by the caster's casting stats. The damage this dagger does is determined not by the spell, but by the caster/wielder's size and strength. Weapon Focus (Dagger) will apply, but I don't think it will be doubled because the dagger's damage isn't "an aspect of the spell".

I could be wrong, of course, but that's how I see it.

I am in agreement with this.

Lantern Lodge

The other thing that seems to be missed is that spell perfection

Spell perfection wrote:


In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell

Arcane strike does not provide a set numerical bonus. It is a scaling bonus that changes as you level.


Huh, I took set numerical bonus to mean 'not determined by a die roll'.
Guess even there's a difference in interpretation.


GM Aerondor wrote:
The other thing that seems to be missed is that spell perfection
Spell perfection wrote:


In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell
Arcane strike does not provide a set numerical bonus. It is a scaling bonus that changes as you level.

A set numerical bonus is any bonus that does not involve rolling dice.

As opposed to a random bonus, which would involve a die roll to resolve.

A hypothetical example would be applying Bane to a flame blade: the +2 enhancement bonus would double, the 2d6 damage would not.

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