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I think we all want really nifty Pathfinder flavor and crunch. If we can influence Mr. Stewart and the Paizo powers-that-be to shoehorn in nifty ideas we want, or spark their brains to go into interesting and unexpected directions for this product - great! But this Paizo book is going to have a finite wordcount. And if it can't fit in this book, I'd still like to see those great ideas explored by fine 3PP developers like Jon Brazer, Legendary Games, Rogue Genius, Dreamscarred Press, and so many others.
By the way, for those hesitating to use 3PP products, Mr. Stewart has written for the first three of those companies (among others).
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The amount of crossover between pathfinder writers and 3pp is incredible. :-)
In a good way obviously.
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Somewhere unseen Todd rumbles awake at the calling...
Appears in a splash of crawling shadows and with the sounds of a discordant chorus of hundreds of opening cans of diet code red mountain dew.
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I think we all want really nifty Pathfinder flavor and crunch. If we can influence Mr. Stewart and the Paizo powers-that-be to shoehorn in nifty ideas we want, or spark their brains to go into interesting and unexpected directions for this product - great! But this Paizo book is going to have a finite wordcount. And if it can't fit in this book, I'd still like to see those great ideas explored by fine 3PP developers like Jon Brazer, Legendary Games, Rogue Genius, Dreamscarred Press, and so many others.
By the way, for those hesitating to use 3PP products, Mr. Stewart has written for the first three of those companies (among others).
I've actually written for all of them except for Dreamscarred Press (though my 3pp corpus is relatively small compared to a lot of other folks). There's often little difference between 1pp and 3pp in quality since a lot of the same folks write for both. 1pp just has more budget for art, time for development, etc but 3pp can usually let authors explore more niche topics. Find authors you like in stuff for big publishers like Paizo and then go look for 3pp stuff they've worked on and I assure you that you'll find some gems.
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Somewhere unseen Todd rumbles awake at the calling...Appears in a splash of crawling shadows and with the sounds of a discordant chorus of hundreds of opening cans of diet code red mountain dew.My people!
*hugs Todd*
I currently have over 400 cans of the vital elixer in my house after raiding two dozen food lions, Bi-Lo's, and publix in two states a month or so back. They don't bottle it in NC so I have to go all interstate murder hobo and quest for it.
I can stop anytime I want...
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I've actually written for all of them except for Dreamscarred Press (though my 3pp corpus is relatively small compared to a lot of other folks). There's often little difference between 1pp and 3pp in quality since a lot of the same folks write for both. 1pp just has more budget for art, time for development, etc but 3pp can usually let authors explore more niche topics. Find authors you like in stuff for big publishers like Paizo and then go look for 3pp stuff they've worked on and I assure you that you'll find some gems.
What he said! Thank you for saying so.
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Somewhere unseen Todd rumbles awake at the calling...Appears in a splash of crawling shadows and with the sounds of a discordant chorus of hundreds of opening cans of diet code red mountain dew.My people!
*hugs Todd*
I currently have over 400 cans of the vital elixer in my house after raiding two dozen food lions, Bi-Lo's, and publix in two states a month or so back. They don't bottle it in NC so I have to go all interstate murder hobo and quest for it.
I can stop anytime I want...
Nice.
Make sure to check the expiration dates though, MD goes out way faster than other soft drinks.
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Somewhere unseen Todd rumbles awake at the calling...Appears in a splash of crawling shadows and with the sounds of a discordant chorus of hundreds of opening cans of diet code red mountain dew.My people!
*hugs Todd*
I currently have over 400 cans of the vital elixer in my house after raiding two dozen food lions, Bi-Lo's, and publix in two states a month or so back. They don't bottle it in NC so I have to go all interstate murder hobo and quest for it.
I can stop anytime I want...
Nice.
Make sure to check the expiration dates though, MD goes out way faster than other soft drinks.
Oh they won't be around for long... :)
If the book is more setting heavy.
-It would be nice to get a lot of new, collected, and updated information. I would be fine with this since I would love a big update and expansion to "The Great Beyond" campaign setting book.
If the book is more rules heavy.
-I am all for more options especially ones themed on the planes and the beings and creatures from them. I could fill a hardcover book with things I would like to see.
If the book is 50% both rules and setting information.
-Not a fan of this one because it tries to make both sides happy but fails at both.
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Oh they won't be around for long... :)Somewhere unseen Todd rumbles awake at the calling...Appears in a splash of crawling shadows and with the sounds of a discordant chorus of hundreds of opening cans of diet code red mountain dew.My people!
*hugs Todd*
I currently have over 400 cans of the vital elixer in my house after raiding two dozen food lions, Bi-Lo's, and publix in two states a month or so back. They don't bottle it in NC so I have to go all interstate murder hobo and quest for it.
I can stop anytime I want...
Nice.
Make sure to check the expiration dates though, MD goes out way faster than other soft drinks.
So "stop anytime I want" translates to "when I run out" :3
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I just wish we could get modrons.
Has it already been month since Gen Con?
I would just be happy to have monsters shaped like gaming dice;)
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I just wish we could get modrons.
WotC IP, not happening, blah, blah, blah. We all know this, but yeah, I'd love to see more done with them too.
Now in terms of what we might actually be able to get, I'd really like to see more on the Axiomites, the Inevitables, and the Apkallu that were introduced in Bestiary 5. I mean, yes, if you really want to dig you can go look at ancient Mesopotamian myths for more info on the Apkallu, but it's always been that LN (and CN) Outsiders get the least coverage, and maybe for once in the long, long history of planar RPG adventuring we could see some serious coverage of them in this book.
I agree CN and LN outsiders really are unloved.
Interesting.
Will there be Sickle, the City of Dares, set atop the infinite Spike arising from the Stoutlands?
Will there be Sickle, the City of Dares, set atop the infinite Spike arising from the Stoutlands?
Not a member of the staff or a contributor...but I'm betting on, "No."
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summon monster I list
Today (well, technically, yesterday now) I bring you the expanded summon monster II list for your game. Enjoy.
I wonder when the product description for this one will finally be up. Hopefully by the end of this month.
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summon monster II
Today we bring you summon monster III unchained. Enjoy.
SnipSounds like you want: http://paizo.com/products/btpy9b9t
It has rules for expanding summon tables. It takes feats, but that makes sense because it they make the spells more powerful.
The other Summon Spells you are fine as spells on their own. If folks are dying to summon those creatures they can add the appropriate spell to their spellbook/spells known.
Adding more selections to SM/SA, at no cost, just because more Bestiaries have been added makes no sense. Should Magic Missile get new optional effects every time a 1st level spell has been added to the game? "I cast magic missile!" "ok, roll d4." "No, it's a creature vulnerable to cold so this magic missile is a Ranged Touch Attack that does d6 Cold because the Snowball spell exists!"
I am aware of those feats, but I addressed the problems I had with them in my previous post, so I do not believe that I need to go into that again. As for your example using Magic Missile, that something of a false equivalence. You see, Magic Missile is well, exactly what it says on the tin, a spell for shooting an arcane blast of energy at an opponent, represented by force damage because that is an energy type that very few things are immune to and not readily associated with anything else. That is all it is supposed to be. Summon Monster on the other hand, is an entirely different can of worms. As the point of Summon Monster is to summon monsters, that means that not being able to summon iconic monsters that are on level CR with the existing one is a bigger deal. Magic Missle does everything that you would expect from a 1st level spell bearing that name, but the Summon Monster list (and by extension the Summon Nature's Ally list) comes across as lacking when you cannot do what the spell seems to advertise (namely, Summon anything not in Bestiary 1 unless you worship a certain god or take a feat whose options were limited by what was released at the time). Indeed, it is far worse for Druid, seeing how there is only one* feat in existence to increase the list of summonable creatures for them (Summon Plant Ally), and it only adds 1-to-2 creatures per level, not constituting a very large increase in terms of selection, even when the feat was published.
The long and the short of it is that since Summoning monsters is what these spells are supposed to do, the game having more compatible monsters to summon makes it so the original list seems to come up inadequate in comparison. Magic Missile is still shooting undodgeable bolts of force at people like it has since day one, but nothing drastic has changed to make it so that there are obvious things lacking in it that didn't exist when the game was released. Summon Monster on the other hand, won't let you do something like, summon a camel to ride even if you are going for a more Arabian Night's kind of campaign, or summon any of the Sakhil, even if you really like Daigle's fear babies and want to incorporate them into your game. The summoning spells are very versatile options, to be sure, but their very versatility is what makes it so clear that the lists that were rather comprehensive back in '09 just don't seem to cut it anymore.
Just my two CP, though.
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It would be nice if there was a way to tie summon spells, creature types, challenge ratings, and the various Knowledge spells.
For example, for each rank of Knowledge X, you learn how to summon a creature of type X, with a CR equal to Y. If Knowledge X is a class skill, you learn 3 how to summon 3 additional creatures of type X. Each time you gain a level, you can lose the ability to summon one creature and exchange it to learn a new creature of a CR you can cast.
The CR is probably going to be the hardest thing to figure out. Maybe CR equal to half your level? 1/3 your level? 1/4 your level? Maybe with a feat that lets you add +1 to this?
It's difficult, because CR is such a variant measurement of creature power.
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It would be nice if there was a way to tie summon spells, creature types, challenge ratings, and the various Knowledge spells.
For example, for each rank of Knowledge X, you learn how to summon a creature of type X, with a CR equal to Y. If Knowledge X is a class skill, you learn 3 how to summon 3 additional creatures of type X. Each time you gain a level, you can lose the ability to summon one creature and exchange it to learn a new creature of a CR you can cast.
The CR is probably going to be the hardest thing to figure out. Maybe CR equal to half your level? 1/3 your level? 1/4 your level? Maybe with a feat that lets you add +1 to this?
It's difficult, because CR is such a variant measurement of creature power.
The 3.X Unearthed Arcana, which offered thoughts like 'let's give all Druids and Wizards a free domain' offered for summon monster spells a *downgrade* option, with the spellcaster getting one or two critters per level, and having to learn the other options specially.
That would be a neat option to combine with this. Have each summon level come with one or two 'free' beasties, and then the rest you need to purchase with ranks of the appropriate knowledge skill, with each rank purchased including enough knowledge about critters of that type to add one more beastie of the appropriate type to your summon list.
I'm not sure tying it into CR would do more than complicate things needlessly. The summon spells already have ballpark CRs for the critters they summon, and each skill rank learned would allow you to add a critter to one summon spell that you can already cast, so you couldn't just add 'dire tiger' to your SMVI list with a rank of Knowledge (nature) that you picked up at 3rd level.
Indeed, you might find it wiser to wait a few levels to rank up those knowledge skills, so that you don't 'waste' them learning to summon beasties that are only on the SMI and SMII lists!
Other options to tie summons to knowledge skills would be to require a lesser form of 'spell research' to learn critters beyond the base 'celestial blue-footed booby,' 'fiendish wombat' stuff. Learning how to summon a dretch, or a succubus, or a shadow demon, or some other more exotic fiend, would require an expenditure of time and money, and, if failed, might not be repeatable for a level, or even until you master a new level of spells (meaning that if you fail when you've already got your top level of spells, you might *never* learn to summon that big demon / angel / whatever you had your hopes set upon).
Just as long as there's some specific ruling that summoned critters can't use wishes (for the chucklehead who dives right for "Efreet!" for his summoning-research-gumbie), or create spawn, or do anything else game-balance-wrecking. :)
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Considering we haven't gotten a product description for it yet then it must be a June release. That is a long while between hardcover releases unless there is something coming out between Ultimate Wilderness and this one that I haven't heard of yet.
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It would be nice if there was a way to tie summon spells, creature types, challenge ratings, and the various Knowledge spells.
For example, for each rank of Knowledge X, you learn how to summon a creature of type X, with a CR equal to Y. If Knowledge X is a class skill, you learn 3 how to summon 3 additional creatures of type X. Each time you gain a level, you can lose the ability to summon one creature and exchange it to learn a new creature of a CR you can cast.
The CR is probably going to be the hardest thing to figure out. Maybe CR equal to half your level? 1/3 your level? 1/4 your level? Maybe with a feat that lets you add +1 to this?
It's difficult, because CR is such a variant measurement of creature power.
The 3.X Unearthed Arcana, which offered thoughts like 'let's give all Druids and Wizards a free domain' offered for summon monster spells a *downgrade* option, with the spellcaster getting one or two critters per level, and having to learn the other options specially.
That would be a neat option to combine with this. Have each summon level come with one or two 'free' beasties, and then the rest you need to purchase with ranks of the appropriate knowledge skill, with each rank purchased including enough knowledge about critters of that type to add one more beastie of the appropriate type to your summon list.
I'm not sure tying it into CR would do more than complicate things needlessly. The summon spells already have ballpark CRs for the critters they summon, and each skill rank learned would allow you to add a critter to one summon spell that you can already cast, so you couldn't just add 'dire tiger' to your SMVI list with a rank of Knowledge (nature) that you picked up at 3rd level.
Indeed, you might find it wiser to wait a few levels to rank up those knowledge skills, so that you don't 'waste' them learning to summon beasties that are only on the SMI and SMII lists!
Other options to tie summons to knowledge skills would be to...
Yeah, my ideas were more of a PF 2.0 idea, not a practical application or alteration to current PF rules.
I would suggest a "retraining" rule too, so you could lose Knowledge of SM1/SNA1 critter for a SM2/SNA2 critter once per level, so you wouldn't have to save skill ranks for later so you can get high level critters.
IF the CRs of monsters were "standardized" (whatever that means), then instead of having a small list of summonable monsters, summon monster spells would look something like this:
Summon Monster 1: CR 1
Summon Monster 2: CR 2
Summon Monster 3: CR 3
Summon Monster 4: CR 4
etc.
Of course, we would then need to develop a CR system where CR means something like CR 1 equals a fair challenge for 1 level 1 PC or something like that.
Which opens up a brand new bag of worms.
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Will Planar Adventures have any fun things to do in the good-aligned planes? I wanna see what's lurking in the underbelly of Heaven's Shore.
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Will Planar Adventures have any fun things to do in the good-aligned planes? I wanna see what's lurking in the underbelly of Heaven's Shore.
A lucrative trade in beige-market PG film tickets?
The Redemption Engine was a thing.
Even Angels sometimes get so caught up in the fight they forget the why of the fight.
Corruption and Despair infiltrate the Good planes just as Hope and Redemption find their way in the Evil planes.
Come to think of it, they did say this book is a Spring release?
Come to think of it, they did say this book is a Spring release?
To be honest, the only release timeframe I heard this far is 2018.
Actually looking into it they did say Planar Adventures is a Spring release but that can always change;)
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summon monster II
summon monster III
Today I am pleased to add summon monster IV and summon monster V for your perusal. Enjoy.
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Hopefully there will more information for this book by the end of the month.
So wich month(October, November, or December) do you guys think they will release the product description for this one?
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Summon Monster summons monsters. I don't know why you think it should be expanded if other spells aren't. It's not "Summon Any Monster of the same CR".
Summon monster VIII has exactly 1 monster that a non-evil spellcaster can summon, a greater elemental. That is not a fault of the spell; its a fault of the Bestiary not having enough animals of sufficient CR/good-aligned outsiders in the book. Same is true with all the other higher level summon monster spells, but VIII is the most glaringly obvious example of an issue that needs resolved.
To cast this spell with such a limited utility a cleric has to give up greater planar ally, a spell that can summon creatures more powerful than summon monster XI can and for a greater duration, all for the cost of two cloaks of resistance +1, which by 15th level, you've traded in half a dozen (if not substantially more) for cash by then. And the creatures for that spell are not limited to a list but any outsider 18HD or under.
I think expanding the summon friends line of spells to include some of the new monsters in the 5 new bestiaries since the original creation is a wonderful idea.
I do not believe anybody is seriously asking that every single monster of the appropriate CRs, continuously expanded every few years to add in all the other monsters.
However, adding a handful of monsters per spell is a great idea.
For example, adding in some of the CR 2 creations to Summon Monster III would be awesome.
As would including some other outsiders for a lot of the other spells.
I also think adding an outsider of each alignment, where possible, to SM IX is best idea.
OH!!
It would be if SM VIII had more than 3 freakin options, yea? Maybe?
Summon Monster summons monsters. I don't know why you think it should be expanded if other spells aren't. It's not "Summon Any Monster of the same CR".Summon monster VIII has exactly 1 monster that a non-evil spellcaster can summon, a greater elemental.
Correction; Summon monster VIII has exactly 1 monster that a good cleric can summon, a greater elemental. Nothing's stopping your good wizard or neutral cleric from siccing barbezu on their foes.
Is this the GEN CON release next year?