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So, if you guys are like me, Ancient Thassalon keeps popping up in the campaign setting, and it is super confusing because it's a lot of ancient magic stuff with little to no context. Well I finally got down to researching it, and I've come up with what happened, mostly. If you have something to add please do so (politely) in the thread below.
So to understand the start, you need to know a little about the Azlanti. The Azlanti were humans who were enhanced by ancient evil alien space-fish. (They got a racial +2 to ALL abilitiy scores). Ostensibly this was to make them better slaves, but they rebelled and made a super-civilization on the continent of Azlant. They quickly realized that they were better than most other humanoid races, and became pretty arrogant.
One Azlanti, a powerful Rune-Wizard named Xin, suggested that maybe they should get together and work with the other humanoid races. For his heretical beliefs, he was banished. He took several followers with him and journeyed to what is now Varisia, and set up his own empire using the few Azlanti he brought with him, and humans native to the area.
Xin brought with him the religion of Lissala, who at the time wasn't evil (I think?). Xin studied Lissala's 'rune magic' and supplemented that with knowledge gleaned from other outsiders. He refined 'virtue runs magic' to an art form, and taught it to others. Seven others rose through the ranks to become masters of one virtue of rune magic each. They became the 'runelords' and were made (essentially) barons of ancient Thassalon, with Xin as the emperor.
Things went along well enough for a while, but when Xin died, things went downhill. Thassalon seemed to slip and and the virtues started to be corrupted into related sins. The runelords, super powerful, began fighting and squabbling with each other, and essentially dissolved into 7 separate smaller countries. The runelords, only concerned with their personal wealth and power, basically let their empires crumble and their economies stagnate. At this point (I think) all the corruption of rune-magic turned Lissala evil because of all the evil prayers her evil followers sent her.
Their empires collapsing, all the runelords discovered through divination the coming of the Age of darkness (the huge freaking meteor), and all went into hiding, finding a way to go into stasis and building magically secured complexes for themselves, so that they might wake after the dust settled. Some have recently awoken, but not all.
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We have actually published a ton of context about Thassilon over the years, going all the way back to the very first Pathfinder Adventure Path volume. There's a pretty comprehensive article compiling these sources on the PathfinderWiki, here. For more information on the ancient empire, I'd suggest the following sources:
- Rise of the Runelords Adventure Path
- Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Lost Empires
- Shattered Star Adventure Path
- Pathfinder Tales: Lord of Runes
- Curse of the Crimson Throne and Second Darkness Adventure Paths (to a lesser extent than the two mentioned above)
- Pathfinder Player Companion: Varisia, Birthplace of Legends
- Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Season 4: Year of the Risen Rune
- Pathfinder Module: Seven Swords of Sin
- Pathfinder: Hollow Mountain (comics)
As to your specific overview, a few points of note.
The great aboleth experiment of humanity was not common knowledge among the Azlanti. As far as they knew, they were simply a great civilization that arose due to their own greatness. There were certainly conspiracy theorists who raved about the veiled masters and other forces manipulating Azlant from the shadows (or under the waves, as the case may be), but these were fringe lunatics rather than accepted prophets of reality.
Thassilon, especially after Xin, was not particularly known for cooperation with other humanoids. In fact, Thassilon was pretty xenophobic. They enslaved giants and just about any other race they could, and the descendants of ancient Thassilon that exist today (Shoanti and Varisians) both have ancient histories of subservience to the runelords. The elves of Mierani Forest had a long-standing rivalry with Thassilon, which surrounded them on three sides. There also weren't many other humanoid races around to work with at the time. Dwarves and orcs had yet to make their trek from Golarion's heart to its surface, and the gnomes had not yet migrated from the First World.
And Xin didn't just die; he was betrayed and murdered by the runelords in what was simply the first of their centuries-long squabble for power over their counterparts in the other realms. Even Xanderghul, Runelord of Pride, and the strongest of the bunch, was never powerful enough to bring the other seven kingdoms to heel. Of the seven runelords alive when Earthfall came, only Xanderghul and Sorshen (Runelord of Lust) had held their title since before Xin's murder. All the other runelords had treacherously usurped their power from a predecessor; they had not only their rival runelords to worry about, as a result, ever looking over their shoulders for an ambitious and traitorous underling.
The runelords also didn't necessarily foresee Earthfall, but rather, were well equipped to ride out the destruction in the immediate aftermath of the aboleth's celestial cataclysm. Each used their associated school of magic to escape their empire's downfall, and each had a contingency in place to eventually return. Thus far, we've already seen a few of them (Karzoug, Krune, Alaznist, Sorshen, and Zutha have all appeared in existing, contemporary canon in some form or another).
There's more information about Lissala prior to her full turn to evil in Pathfinder AP #123, which details the gods of Azlant.
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We have actually published a ton of context about Thassilon over the years, going all the way back to the very first Pathfinder Adventure Path volume. There's a pretty comprehensive article compiling these sources on the PathfinderWiki, here. For more information on the ancient empire, I'd suggest the following sources:
- Rise of the Runelords Adventure Path
- Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Lost Empires
- Shattered Star Adventure Path
- Pathfinder Tales: Lord of Runes
- Curse of the Crimson Throne and Second Darkness Adventure Paths (to a lesser extent than the two mentioned above)
- Pathfinder Player Companion: Varisia, Birthplace of Legends
- Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Season 4: Year of the Risen Rune
- Pathfinder Module: Seven Swords of Sin
- Pathfinder: Hollow Mountain (comics)
As to your specific overview, a few points of note.
The great aboleth experiment of humanity was not common knowledge among the Azlanti. As far as they knew, they were simply a great civilization that arose due to their own greatness. There were certainly conspiracy theorists who raved about the veiled masters and other forces manipulating Azlant from the shadows (or under the waves, as the case may be), but these were fringe lunatics rather than accepted prophets of reality.
Xin was not exiled from Azlant due to wanting to work with other humanoids. In fact, Thassilon was pretty xenophobic. They enslaved giants and just about any other race they could, and the descendants of ancient Thassilon that exist today (Shoanti and Varisians) both have ancient histories of subservience to the runelords.
And Xin didn't just die; he was betrayed and murdered by the runelords in what was simply the first of their centuries-long squabble for power over their counterparts in the other realms. Even Xanderghul, Runelord of Pride, and the strongest of the bunch, was never powerful enough to bring the other seven kingdoms to heel....
Couple of things.
First off, thank you for responding to my post. I'm sorry I got a few things wrong and I am thankful that you set the record straight.
Secondly, yes, I know that PAIZO has published a lot of stuff over the years, but the problem (for me at least) is that the information is all over the place and not everyone can afford every book. So, like me, when I play Pathfinder society, I kept on hearing about ancient Thassalon, but not getting a lot of info. I got most of my info from season 4 scenarios. I haven't gone through Shattered star, and the stuff in Curse of the Crimson throne has been pretty light (We are in book four right now.)
I was making this for people like me, who had gotten a taste of a bit about it, but were still confused about what was generally going on, which has been a lot of people in my local area. I still get questions about 'what are Thassalonian ruins' and 'why does everyone take ancient Thassalonian as a language?'
Thirdly: Sorry, I misspoke. A lot of that came from the inner sea world guide. If that's no longer cannon, or has been retconned, news to me. All of the following can be found on page 211 of the inner sea world guide.
Xin wanted "Cooperation with lesser races" not other humanoids specifically and was exiled for that. I guess I just assumed it was humanoids because that's what he ended up doing.
As for him being killed? Didn't know that. The inner sea world guide just says he was 'consumed by his own magic.'
And lastly, the inner sea world guide says "legends state that its runelords did not [die]—that these powerful wizards foresaw the coming devastation and fled to hidden fortresses guarded by powerful artifacts. . ." (emphasis mine)
Again, I guess it didn't have to be divination magic, I guess I kind of assumed because none of the runelords had barred school-divination and were all super powerful. Again, bad assumption on my part.
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From the wiki page mark linked "When Earthfall finally struck, Thassilon was already on its last legs and would not have lasted long had the cataclysmic event not occurred. Each of the wizards foresaw the doom, and made various preparations to survive the fiery apocalypse that claimed so many"
So the runelords did not foresee Earthfall.. they saw that their sins had let the civilization crumble, and that they would need to hide for a time to prevent death. This made them each build some way to disappear and come back hundreds of years later. This just ment that they had these escapes ready when Earthfall occurred.
I think for the cooperation with other races... I would have to reread that part of the ISWG, but I'm guessing that they are talking about humans, not so much other humanoids. The first thing they did was to help the Shoanti and Variasians. Xin also personally "bargained with mighty and powerful creatures, ancient dragons and inscrutable creatures from the Great Beyond who granted him knowledge of rune magic, said by some to be the language of creation itself" . So while he was exiled for saying treating with other races might be a good thing to do, he did in his personal life. He did not nessisarily do it in the name of Thassilon, which is where the confusion seems to be coming from.
The wiki attempts to add things from as many books as possible and in doing so some thing become more clear... but there ar usually only a few active writers at a time on busy months. Feel free to help update some pages.
. I don't think what you said was wrong in many of the cases, but the writing at the time of the ISWG was made more vague on purpose. The world was only a few years old, so some of this was gettting fleshed out for the first time. Tthey also most likely knew that shattered star was coming and that A lot of this story would be fleshed out by those authors, so they didn't want to pigeonhole the future authors into something if a better idea came along in the AP writing. Now that some of those holes are filled in, it allows us to point to details that didn't exist at the time of the ISWG to best way to interpret certain passages.
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As the noble Captain says, the Inner Sea World Guide is a good overview on just about every subject in the setting (including Thassilon), and it's actually considered the canon baseline as well. But by its very nature, it can't be as detailed as many other sources, which is why it doesn't explain in great depth some of the elements that have been more thoroughly explored elsewhere.
As for Xin's cooperation with lesser races, this is totally about cooperation with lesser human ethnicities. Even then, this spirit of geniality was quickly corrupted by power and turned even the cooperation upon which Thassilon was supposedly built into a place that was pretty terrible for anyone that wasn't in a runelord's inner circle. You'll note that I edited my original response to clarify this, apparently at the same time you were quoting the original text. Hope it's clearer now.
In Thassilon, divination was considered a universal school, useful to practitioners of all types of rune and sin magic, and as such was not restricted by any of the runelords. But the existence and practice of divination doesn't necessarily mean that everyone who could cast mid- to high-level spells knew Earthfall was coming. Sure, there were some who claimed it was or who foresaw it via magic or prophecy or whatever, but most of them were seen as raving madmen rather than true prophets of a forthcoming disaster. The runelords knew that their empire's end was inevitable, regardless of the cause, however, and most of their contingencies were as much to wait that out as they ended up being for the destruction brought about by the aboleth's summoned meteorites. This is evidenced by the fact that most of the runelords assumed they'd be hidden away in their runewells or extradimensional sleeping chambers for centuries at the most, not millennia.
Ultimately, a lot of the specifics of what Thassilon was like at its height, what the runelords knew and when they knew it, and other deep continuity has never been nailed down. This is both to allow GMs to use the ancient empire as best fits their campaigns' needs, and also because very little from 10,000 years in the past has a direct impact on adventures and stories taking place in the modern day, which is ultimately the campaign setting's goal.
As Cpt_Kirstov said, if you are looking to compile information from multiple sources for your own and others' benefits, the wiki is a great place to do so. It's also highly collaborative, so anything you have questions about can easily be filled in by others with different source material at hand or more institutional knowledge of message board clarifications.
Xin's big beef with Azlant was that they were arrogant in the superiority of their magic and considered all other magical traditions categorically inferior, with nothing to offer them. Xin saw the value in the unique magical traditions of "lesser" civilizations.
So Xin learned from the magical traditions of other, non-Azlanti peoples, experimented, and taught what he'd learned to anyone willing to listen, giving rise to what eventually became the Thassilonian magical tradition that his disciples eventually corrupted into "Sin Magic."
Because of his growing number of students, Xin's radical ideas became considered a problem and he was given an ultimatum to either cut it out or get out, and he chose the latter, deciding he'd make his own civilization that would be better than Azlant's.
With blackjack! And h******!
Of course, old Xin turned out to be pretty disinterested in the day-to-day business of ruling a burgeoning civilization (which was also seriously cutting into his research time) and decided his best and brightest students would be perfect stewards of his empire.
Unfortunately, Xin appears to have been a terrible judge of character, and all seven of his Runelord students turned out to be capital "E" Evil and turned on him.
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Xin's big beef with Azlant was that they were arrogant in the superiority of their magic and considered all other magical traditions categorically inferior, with nothing to offer them. Xin saw the value in the unique magical traditions of "lesser" civilizations.
So Xin learned from the magical traditions of other, non-Azlanti peoples, experimented, and taught what he'd learned to anyone willing to listen, giving rise to what eventually became the Thassilonian magical tradition that his disciples eventually corrupted into "Sin Magic."
Because of his growing number of students, Xin's radical ideas became considered a problem and he was given an ultimatum to either cut it out or get out, and he chose the latter, deciding he'd make his own civilization that would be better than Azlant's.
With blackjack! And h******!
Of course, old Xin turned out to be pretty disinterested in the day-to-day business of ruling a burgeoning civilization (which was also seriously cutting into his research time) and decided his best and brightest students would be perfect stewards of his empire.
Unfortunately, Xin appears to have been a terrible judge of character, and all seven of his Runelord students turned out to be capital "E" Evil and turned on him.
See, that's the part I never got. I mean, people always make Xin out to be arrogant and stuff, but, like, he was REALLY into the seven VIRTUES of rule, right? Love, zeal, Temperance, etc. From what I can tell, he was a good guy.
From what I assumed, (and this may be wrong) is that Xin gets really into Lissala worship and rune magic, and believed it would make the basis for a good civilization, especially because the SUPER arrogant Azlanti system seemed to be doing them no favors. So he goes and starts his own civ. After things get up and running, he tries delving deeper and deeper into this 'heavenly virtue rune magic,' and so leaves the day-to-day operations to his seven best lieutenants. They become corrupt with power, start overthrowing each other, killing each other, (maybe) kill him?
That totally off base?
Xin's big beef with Azlant was that they were arrogant in the superiority of their magic and considered all other magical traditions categorically inferior, with nothing to offer them. Xin saw the value in the unique magical traditions of "lesser" civilizations.
So Xin learned from the magical traditions of other, non-Azlanti peoples, experimented, and taught what he'd learned to anyone willing to listen, giving rise to what eventually became the Thassilonian magical tradition that his disciples eventually corrupted into "Sin Magic."
Because of his growing number of students, Xin's radical ideas became considered a problem and he was given an ultimatum to either cut it out or get out, and he chose the latter, deciding he'd make his own civilization that would be better than Azlant's.
With blackjack! And h******!
Of course, old Xin turned out to be pretty disinterested in the day-to-day business of ruling a burgeoning civilization (which was also seriously cutting into his research time) and decided his best and brightest students would be perfect stewards of his empire.
Unfortunately, Xin appears to have been a terrible judge of character, and all seven of his Runelord students turned out to be capital "E" Evil and turned on him.
See, that's the part I never got. I mean, people always make Xin out to be arrogant and stuff, but, like, he was REALLY into the seven VIRTUES of rule, right? Love, zeal, Temperance, etc. From what I can tell, he was a good guy.
From what I assumed, (and this may be wrong) is that Xin gets really into Lissala worship and rune magic, and believed it would make the basis for a good civilization, especially because the SUPER arrogant Azlanti system seemed to be doing them no favors. So he goes and starts his own civ. After things get up and running, he tries delving deeper and deeper into this 'heavenly virtue rune magic,' and so leaves the day-to-day operations to his seven best lieutenants. They become corrupt with power, start...
Xin was Lawful Neutral. Azlant was big on those exact same virtues of rule as well; he didn't pioneer that, but simply experimented with how one could gain greater magical power and understanding through focusing on them and their associated school of magic even more than the Azlanti already did.
You don't have to necessarily be a good person to see the value in a society built on "don't be a d*** to each other and work hard," and Xin wanting to create a grander and better society than Azlant was as much motivated by wanting to prove that his ideas were right as anything. Xin was most certainly not evil, but he was motivated more by a kind of philosophical/scientific curiosity and ego than a deep desire to improve the lot in life of the people around him or anything inherently altruistic.
He was kind of like Plato and other Greek philosophers who weren't exactly pillars of goodness, but still devoted their minds to seeking solutions in what they saw as the frailties and follies of civilization, if for no other reason than that it presents a puzzle to understand and solve, which is kind of what natural philosophy/science is all about in the end.
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With regards to the Runelords not foreseeing the destruction of Earthfall, wasn't that what they used the Cypher Gate for? They peered into the future, saw Earthfall, and went "well, crap." I might be misremembering what the Cypher Gate was used for (or maybe it was retconned?)
First off, thank you for responding to my post. I'm sorry I got a few things wrong and I am thankful that you set the record straight.
Secondly, yes, I know that PAIZO has published a lot of stuff over the years, but the problem (for me at least) is that the information is all over the place and not everyone can afford every book. So, like me, when I play Pathfinder society, I kept on hearing about ancient Thassalon, but not getting a lot of info. I got most of my info from season 4 scenarios. I haven't gone through Shattered star, and the stuff in Curse of the Crimson throne has been pretty light (We are in book four right now.)
I was making this for people like me, who had gotten a taste of a bit about it, but were still confused about what was generally going on, which has been a lot of people in my local area. I still get questions about 'what are Thassalonian ruins' and 'why does everyone take ancient Thassalonian as a language?'
In-game, there's not a lot known about Thassilon, even by most scholars. To regular people who don't have 10 skill ranks to drop into "Knowledge (history)", Thassilon is little more than "those guys who built all those huge statues in Varisia, right?" if they know anything at all. If you ask people outside of Varisia about Thassilon, you'll just get blank looks.
I am not involved in Society play at all, but it would totally make sense for even a rank-and-file member of the Pathfinder Society to have only a minimal passing familiarity with Thassilon.
What are all of the places where the Runelords have surfaced? Some I do know, but others I don't. I honestly didn't know that five of the seven had already awoken. Can't wait for the rest to awaken and really shake things up.
I think by "appeared in contemporary, existing canon" doesn't necessarily mean that they've shown up in person but that they or their legacy/work have been significant to an adventure in some way. Like Sorshen with the Lady's Light in Shattered Star.
As far as I know, the only Runelords who have actually shown up in person are Karzoug and a deposed Runelord of Wrath in Wrath of the Righteous.
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Cites I can think of off the top of my head.
Well, there is the cypher gate, a big magical arch over a port.
There is an ancient Thassalonian temple in a jungle somewhere. PFS scenario, forget which one. Involves an evocation mask.
There are a thousand small little underground temples and labs. Book 1 of rise of the runelords has one, season 8, wrath of the flesh warped queen is another. Book 3 of Curse of the Crimson throne has a third. A fourth is in the Night march of Kalkamedies.
The Storvil stairs is a Thassalonian ruin that was designed to facilitate the movement of giants from one locale to another.
Magnamar is built on a large ancient Thassalonian causeway.
There's more information about Lissala prior to her full turn to evil in Pathfinder AP #123, which details the gods of Azlant.
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O FRABJOUS DAY!
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With regards to the Runelords not foreseeing the destruction of Earthfall, wasn't that what they used the Cypher Gate for? They peered into the future, saw Earthfall, and went "well, crap." I might be misremembering what the Cypher Gate was used for (or maybe it was retconned?)
Yes... and no (or not quite). ^_^
In any case, it was only one Runelord's to use. They weren't fond of sharing in general, and its owner least of all.
You're bit wrong Kalindlara. Cyphergate in question is the arch in Riddleport bay. Still it was Karzougs toy too.
By the way, its interesting that Karzoug was the only one who tinkered with time and relied on "divination" advice. He aligned himself with Caulborn of Kaer Maga (which was there even before Xins arrival). And when those foresaw Earthfall and fled without any notice, he created "proof of concept" - orrery under Therassic Spire in Kaer Maga (Asylum Stone arch of Shattered Star AP). It could show the past for 100+ years, and divine the future for 1+ year. Possibly this gave him enough insight to create Chypergate as a prototype for his time portal in Xin-Shalast.
What are all of the places where the Runelords have surfaced? Some I do know, but others I don't. I honestly didn't know that five of the seven had already awoken. Can't wait for the rest to awaken and really shake things up.I think by "appeared in contemporary, existing canon" doesn't necessarily mean that they've shown up in person but that they or their legacy/work have been significant to an adventure in some way. Like Sorshen with the Lady's Light in Shattered Star.
As far as I know, the only Runelords who have actually shown up in person are Karzoug and a deposed Runelord of Wrath in Wrath of the Righteous.
There is a PFS scenario where you fight Krune, Runelord of sloth.
I think Alaznist, Runelord of Wrath features in the Hollow mountain Pathfinder comics; although I haven't read it, so I'm just guessing about that one.I'm not sure where Sorshen and Zutha appear.
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You're bit wrong Kalindlara. Cyphergate in question is the arch in Riddleport bay. Still it was Karzougs toy too.
I know where and what it is, thank you. -_-
That said, Robert was correct. It's not the portal itself (yet; see below), but was simply used to peer through time; the Leng Device is the first step towards the portal.
I think the other version was my headcanon. It happens. In my defense, it would make a much better way to bring in an ancient army than a portal too small for a single rune giant (Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition 355).
EDIT: Trawling the forum, it looks like it was intended to maybe be the portal. It's a non-interactive window now... but technically, so is the Leng Device, and that can eventually open the portal (whether for the armies of Shalast or for Mhar the World Thunder). The two are also stated to be very similar (Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition 354). So my version may be based in something I read years ago and just haven't found again yet...
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What are all of the places where the Runelords have surfaced? Some I do know, but others I don't. I honestly didn't know that five of the seven had already awoken. Can't wait for the rest to awaken and really shake things up.I think by "appeared in contemporary, existing canon" doesn't necessarily mean that they've shown up in person but that they or their legacy/work have been significant to an adventure in some way. Like Sorshen with the Lady's Light in Shattered Star.
As far as I know, the only Runelords who have actually shown up in person are Karzoug and a deposed Runelord of Wrath in Wrath of the Righteous.
There is a PFS scenario where you fight Krune, Runelord of sloth.
I think Alaznist, Runelord of Wrath features in the Hollow mountain Pathfinder comics; although I haven't read it, so I'm just guessing about that one.
I'm not sure where Sorshen and Zutha appear.
I can answer one of those
zutha runlord of gluttony appears in the Dave Gross novel Lord of Runes
I don't play PFS, but I'm pretty sure Krune played heavily in PFS Season 4: "Year of the Risen Rune." That said, PFS plot arcs aren't fully in Golarion canon: It's considered more-or-less to be a giant home campaign.
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I don't play PFS, but I'm pretty sure Krune played heavily in PFS Season 4: "Year of the Risen Rune." That said, PFS plot arcs aren't fully in Golarion canon: It's considered more-or-less to be a giant home campaign.
Results of reporting from PFS games is deciding things in campaign setting books and APs now, according to the paizocon organized play panels. So they are definitely counted as canon, just a lower rung on the ladder as far as which item overrides another if there are discrepancies see the wikis canon policy for more information.
I would imagine there's going to be a ton more Runelords-related goodness over the next year, with the announcement of the "Return of the Runelords" AP!
