I've been wanting to make a Dragon Disciple build for a long time. After a lot of thinking and tinkering I decided on going for a Barbarian 2 / Sorcerer 8 / Dragon Disciple 10 build focused on using natural weapons. I chose natural weapons both for thematic reasons and because my BAB will be relatively low, making natural weapons a better offensive choice than iterative attacks (especially during lower levels).
I also realize that Bloodragers exist, which basically combine the Barbarian and Sorcerer classes into a single convenient package, but I decided against this. The main reason was that I wanted more than just 4th-level spellcasting. From an optimization perspective it is probably not optimal to take all 10 levels of Dragon Disciple, instead only taking 8. Again, for thematic reasons, I decided to do so anyway, because the upgrade to their Dragon Form ability really fits with the character I'm imagining.
The flavor of my character in short is basically someone who has a demonic dragon's spirit raging within him (represented by the Barbarian's Rage ability at lower levels). As he progresses in levels, this dragon spirit manifests itself in physical changes (claws, horns, wings, and bite attacks), and in the ability to tap into the draconic energy for spellcasting.
The build I'm currently thinking about is as follows:
Race: Human
Stats: STR 16+2, CON 15, DEX 10, INT 10, WIS 8, CHA 14 (20 point buy)
Bloodline: Draconic (green dragon)
Traits: Berserker of Society, Magical Knack
Racial: Focused Study (3 Skill Focus feats over time instead of the single Human bonus feat)
Progression:
1. Barbarian 1 (Feats: Skill Focus (Knowledge planes), Raging Vitality)
2. Barbarian 2 (Rage Power: Lesser Fiend Totem)
3. Sorcerer 1 (Feats: Eldritch Heritage (Abyssal), Abilities: Claws (1d4))
4. Sorcerer 2
5. Sorcerer 3 (Feats: Arcane Strike, Abilities: Resist acid 5)
6. Dragon Disciple 1
7. Dragon Disciple 2 (Feats: Power Attack, Cornugon Smash, Abilities: Dragon Bite, Claws (magic))
8. Dragon Disciple 3 (Feats: Skill Focus (Intimidate), Abilities: Breath Weapon (1/day))
9. Dragon Disciple 4 (Feats: Intimidating Prowess, Abilities: Claws (1d6))
10. Dragon Disciple 5 (Feats: Toughness, Abilities: Blindsense (30ft))
11. Dragon Disciple 6 (Feats: Improved Eldritch Heritage (Abyssal), Abilities: Dragon Bite (+1d6 acid), Resist acid 10)
12. Dragon Disciple 7 (Abilities: Dragon Form (1/day))
13. Dragon Disciple 8 (Feats: Quicken Spell, Noxious Bite, Abilities: Breath Weapon (2/day), Claws (+1d6 acid))
14. Sorcerer 4
15. Dragon Disciple 9 (Feats: Iron Will, Abilities: Wings (60ft))
16. Dragon Disciple 10 (Feats: Skill Focus (Perception), Abilities: Dragon Form (2/day), Blindsense (60ft))
17. Sorcerer 5 (Feats: Favored Prestige Class, Abilities: Wings (90ft))
18. Sorcerer 6
19. Sorcerer 7 (Feats: Prestigious Spellcaster, Great Fortitude, Abilities: Breath Weapon (3/day))
20. Sorcerer 8
I will put the level 4 stat boost in Con and all others in Str. Combined with the stat boosts provided by the Abyssal bloodline and the Dragon Disciple class, this amounts to +14 Str, +3 Con, +2 Int and +7 natural armor at level 20. I will be able to cast 8 level spells at level 20 at an effective caster level of 18.
The build is focused around natural weapons as I said. Through the draconic bloodline, the Dragon Disciple class and the Lesser Fiend Totem rage power I have access to 2 claws, 1 bite and 1 gore attack. When transforming into a dragon I gain 2 wings and on later levels 1 tail slap attack as well for a total of 4, 6 or 7 attacks depending on the form I'm in. When my BAB becomes high enough (11+) I may also start wielding a one-handed weapon to gain 3 iterative attacks at the cost of a single claw attack (or two if I decide to wield it two-handed).
In combat I will mostly focus on being the melee damage dealer with the occasional buff/blast spell. Outside of combat I'd like to also use spells for utility and get things done through Intimidate. For flavor I also wanted to focus a bit on intimidation during combat. This is what Cornugon Smash and Intimidating Prowess are for (and I also get Skill Focus (Intimidate) for free, which certainly helps!). The idea is that my Strength and thus my Intimidate bonus will be massive, allowing me to make almost any opponent I hit shaken for 2+ rounds. As this gives them a penalty on their saving throws, I can then more easily make them nauseous with Noxious Bite that very same turn.
I think I've covered a lot of bases and I think I made a pretty good compromise between optimizing the build and staying true to the character concept. I'd like to hear any advice you may have on this build, mainly to see if I missed any potentially fitting choices! I'm open to feat suggestions, alternate multi-class progression (though I really want to be able to cast 8-level spells so I can achieve the ultimate dragon form through Form of the Dragon III), etc.
Thanks in advance for your input! (And sorry for the long post)
Are you wanting more a melee brute or a Caster?
Trying to do both makes you weaker at both.
Here are my go to Dragon Diciple Builds:
Human 20 point buy
Str: 10, Dex: 14, Con: 12, Int: 10, Wis: 10, Cha: 19
Draconic Sorcerer 7/ Dragon Disciple 8
Feats:
Human: Favored PrC- Dragon Disciple
1: Spell Focus- Evocation
3: Craft Wondrous Item
5: Intensify Spell
7: Prestigious Spell Caster- D.D
7: (Bloodline Feat)- Bloodline Mutation- Havoc
9: Spell Pen
9: (Bloodline) Improved Initiative
11: Prestigious Spell Caster- D.D
12: (Bloodline) Toughness, Power Attack, or Great Fortitude ((You Pick))
13: Dazing Spell or Empower Spell ((You Pick control vs Damage))
15: (Bloodline) Quicken Spell
15: Spell Perfection or ((Your Choice))
The Caster is a full 9th level caster whom can get tanky with Form of the dragon. But the main focus is blowing things apart. It is not a fully optimized blaster but is still good enough to be playable in a AP.
Bloodrager 7/Dragon Disciple 8/Bloodrager 5
Archetype:(Optional) Steel blooded
Race: Human
Alternative Racial: Focused Study
Point Buy:
Str: 19, Dex: 12, Con: 15, Int: 7, Wis: 10, Cha: 12 (+1 to Con @ 4 and rest +1 STR)
Traits:
Community Minded
Dangerously Curious
Bloodline:
Draconic (Pick an Element you Like...I recommend Fire or Lightning as you can get Deliquescent Gloves for Acid Damage to your unarmed attacks.)
Feats:
Human: Skill Focus- Stealth (Covers a Prereq)
1 HD: Power Attack, but retrain to Arcane Strike at level 5 or 6.
3 HD: Raging Vitality (Boosts Con for Paralyze DC)
5 HD: Eldritch Heritage- Ghoul (Claws) ((Level 7 Paralyze on Claws))
6 HD (Bloodline): Power Attack
7 HD: Cornugon Smash (-2 to saves...with cruel…-4 on saves)
Human 8: Skill Focus- Intimidate
9 HD: Iron Will
9 HD (Bloodline): Toughness, Improved Initiative, or Blind-Fight
11 HD: Improved Eldritch Heritage- Ravenous Frenzy (Haste...YES!!!)
12 HD (Bloodline): Toughness, Improved Initiative, or Blind-Fight
13 HD: Bloodied Arcane Strike
15 HD: Raging Brutality
15 HD (Bloodline): Toughness, Improved Initiative, or Blind-Fight
I know you said you did not like bloodrager but this build has a lot of what melee things you were building towards. This build is also PFS legal. You can add Primalist for some good rage powers if you're not concerned about that. You should not overlook the Bloodrager because even 4th level casting is still good casting. Paladins and bloodragers both do very well with it. You can go more than 8 Levels of DD if you wish I feel the difference between FoTD 1 and FoTD 2 is not worth what you give up. I have personally played this build in some games and it is straight brutal when Paralyze kicks in.
Bard 7/Dragon Disciple4/XXX
This is less about form of the dragon and more about being a Support with lots of Kick behind it while wielding a longspear. You recover your Performance via Banner of the Ancient kings to bring it up +4. Most people take only 4 levels being Optimal but you can easily go 8+ and focus on the dragon aspect in the late game. Less interesting than the other builds. More of a melee style support character to fill a role while giving you the feeling of being powered by dragons.
As for your build, I feel you will lack rage rounds into the higher levels. Perhaps Community Minded instead of Berzerker of the society will net you more rage rounds.
Your BaB will suffer drasiticly in your current build. You are going to need help hitting high AC targets since 2/3 classes are not full BaB.
I will reitterate...if you try to do too many things you will not be great at a single thing. Pathfinder rewards a narrower focus of your character.
5 HD: Eldritch Heritage- Ghoul (Claws) ((Level 7 Paralyze on Claws))
just so you know the DC on those claws don't scale unless you are a ghoul because you need racial HD for the DC, and you only use your sorcerer level if you are a ghoul.
5 HD: Eldritch Heritage- Ghoul (Claws) ((Level 7 Paralyze on Claws))just so you know the DC on those claws don't scale unless you are a ghoul because you need racial HD for the DC, and you only use your sorcerer level if you are a ghoul.
Here is what the ability says:
If you’re a ghoul with this bloodline, instead of gaining this ability, your levels in sorcerer stack with your racial Hit Dice when determining the DC of your paralysis and disease special abilities.
You use your Sorcerer Level as your HD for this ability.
So it is 10+1/2 Sorcerer+Con mod.If you are a Ghoul you add your Sorcerer level to your HD when determining the DC...so the HD and Sorcerer Levels stack instead of gaining the ability since it is built into your template.
Your BaB will suffer drasiticly in your current build. You are going to need help hitting high AC targets since 2/3 classes are not full BaB.
I do plan on being mostly melee focused, but I am in doubt about whether or not adding a few more BAB is going to be worth dropping the ability to cast higher level spells for.
The way I see it, Dragon Disciple and the Abyssal bloodline power gained through Eldritch Heritage give me a total of +10 Str, which translates to an additional +5 to hit I otherwise would not have had. In effect, as far as my to-hit is concerned, this would be equivalent to having a BAB of +18. What's more, since I focus on natural weapon I can make all of my 4-7 attacks using my full BAB instead of having a lower to-hit on each consecutive attack were I to use iterative attacks.
Add to that the Str bonus I get from raging, or the Str bonus I get from going into Dragon Form and the eventual +6 bonus from a Belt. All these things combined, I will have a to-hit bonus of +36 to +41 at level 20 on all of my attacks. Am I wrong to think that this should be more than enough to hit even higher level enemies reliably?
As for your build, I feel you will lack rage rounds into the higher levels. Perhaps Community Minded instead of Berserker of the society will net you more rage rounds.
I agree that rage rounds may be somewhat limited at later levels. By my calculations I should have about 16 at level 20. For sustained battle this is likely not enough, though in these cases I could temporarily switch to either using my Breath Weapon or going into Dragon Form without raging, which should still be plenty sufficient at dealing damage I think. Also, am I missing something? I do not immediately see how Community-Minded would help with additional rage rounds for me?
I will reitterate...if you try to do too many things you will not be great at a single thing. Pathfinder rewards a narrower focus of your character.
I agree. I try to find a balance though, between having a narrow focus and keeping the character varied enough for optimal playing pleasure. Obviously I have made some compromises in favor of flavor and deeper spellcasting progression, but as I point out earlier in this post, I think the compromises I made do not invalidate the melee aspect of this build in the slightest. I think the character will still be a very reliable melee fighter even in later levels, and even with the compromises I made.
At level 20 I should be able to do any of the following while raging and in human form:
bite +36 (1d6+31+1d6+1), 2 claws +36 (1d6+23+1d6), 1 gore +36 (1d8+23) or
+5 furious longsword +36/+31/+26 (1d6+23/19-20), bite +31 (1d6+15+1d6+1), claw +31 (1d6+15+1d6), 1 gore +31 (1d8+15) or
+5 furious longsword +36/+31/+26 (1d6+31/19-20), bite +31 (1d6+15+1d6+1), 1 gore +31 (1d8+15)
This is excluding Arcane Strike and Power Attack damage, which would amplify the damage way more. It is also excluding any potential spell buffs I could give myself, such as Haste, Heroism, etc. I can also apply Cornugon Smash and Noxious Bite for further debuffs. And obviously this gets even more impressive if I do take on a Dragon Form, which not only adds more Strength but also adds 2-3 more natural attacks to work with.
Your BaB will suffer drasiticly in your current build. You are going to need help hitting high AC targets since 2/3 classes are not full BaB.I do plan on being mostly melee focused, but I am in doubt about whether or not adding a few more BAB is going to be worth dropping the ability to cast higher level spells for.
The way I see it, Dragon Disciple and the Abyssal bloodline power gained through Eldritch Heritage give me a total of +10 Str, which translates to an additional +5 to hit I otherwise would not have had. In effect, as far as my to-hit is concerned, this would be equivalent to having a BAB of +18. What's more, since I focus on natural weapon I can make all of my 4-7 attacks using my full BAB instead of having a lower to-hit on each consecutive attack were I to use iterative attacks.
Add to that the Str bonus I get from raging, or the Str bonus I get from going into Dragon Form and the eventual +6 bonus from a Belt. All these things combined, I will have a to-hit bonus of +36 to +41 at level 20 on all of my attacks. Am I wrong to think that this should be more than enough to hit even higher level enemies reliably?
As for your build, I feel you will lack rage rounds into the higher levels. Perhaps Community Minded instead of Berserker of the society will net you more rage rounds.I agree that rage rounds may be somewhat limited at later levels. By my calculations I should have about 16 at level 20. For sustained battle this is likely not enough, though in these cases I could temporarily switch to either using my Breath Weapon or going into Dragon Form without raging, which should still be plenty sufficient at dealing damage I think. Also, am I missing something? I do not immediately see how Community-Minded would help with additional rage rounds for me?
I will reitterate...if you try to do too many things you will not be great at a single thing. Pathfinder rewards a narrower focus of your character.I agree. I try to find a...
If you reach +40 on secondary attacks to hit you should be fine as most high end Encounters have AC 40-44. My main concern is not End game to hit but the leveling up to end game, to hit numbers. Your on par with a BaB of a Cleric. Your going to feel the pain from levels 6-11. After 11 however you should be ok. But those are the riskiest levels in the game IMHO. It is prior to Form of the dragon and your Inherent str bonuses. Your basically riding sorcerer buffs, Very limited amounts of Rage, and your BaB.
Edit: COmmunity minded: You count as your ally. Every time you rage you get +2 rounds added. So if fight 1 lasts 7 rounds you spend 5 rounds of rage and get 2...next fight lasts 4 rounds you spend 2 rounds...you have neted 4 rounds extra rage for the day so far. Another trait is also Optimistic Gambler that can increase your rage rounds more than of the society.
Fitting in the extra rage feat before then can do a lot to have enough rage rounds for a day.
Fitting in the extra rage feat before then can do a lot to have enough rage rounds for a day.
Or this. If feats are too tight tho you may want to consider the traits I suggested.
@blashimov: Thanks for the detailed feedback, I can definitely see where you're coming from. I actually hadn't seen the Unchained Barbarian before, but that sounds perfect for what I want. I will consider everything you said and see if I can figure out a new build. Opening up feat slots by dropping Raging Vitality already sounds good, though I wouldn't immediately know what to swap it with. Especially because the Level 7 Power Attack came from a Bloodline Feat, so if I move that to Level 1 I can only replace it with a very limited amount of other feats.
Also, wouldn't I technically enter Level 6 with 2 Arcane Strike damage because of Magical Knack?
As for buying inherent bonuses, are you talking about scrolls of Wish or similar stuff? I think those take a little too long before they become accessible for me.
Savage Barbarian sounds very good if I do indeed take 3 levels in Barbarian, very interesting!
If anyone has any Feat (chain) suggestions for this build in general, those would also be greatly appreciated.