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That's the problem with this scenario. We can get a 5, 3, 4, 3,...and a 1. The guy with the 1 has already "played up" on it so he's stuck at level 1.
Or we could get five people that show up with a level 1 and then a sixth person that shows up with a level 5--and apparently at that point I as the gm am supposed to tell them that they shouldn't play the character they planned/brought with them.
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That's the problem with this scenario. We can get a 5, 3, 4, 3,...and a 1. The guy with the 1 has already "played up" on it so he's stuck at level 1.
Or we could get five people that show up with a lvl 1 and then a sixth person that shows up with a 5--and apparently at that point I as the gm am supposed to tell them that they shouldn't play the character they planned/brought with them.
There's no downside in terms of gold/prestige/etc. from playing out of subtier (high) at least. The gold in particular is tied to the level of the character, not the tier you're playing in.
It does make it a losing proposition for a level 1, though. Extra risk without the reward.
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That's the problem with this scenario. We can get a 5, 3, 4, 3,...and a 1. The guy with the 1 has already "played up" on it so he's stuck at level 1.
Or we could get five people that show up with a level 1 and then a sixth person that shows up with a level 5--and apparently at that point I as the gm am supposed to tell them that they shouldn't play the character they planned/brought with them.
but wait - that's always been a problem in almost every game. any game with a spread of sub-tiers can get that problem.
5 players show up with characters just barely inside the minimum for the scenario and then you get that one guy who shows up with a PC at the top of the Tier.
This has been an issue sense season 0, and happens in every scenario with a spread of sub-tiers. At least we only have a few Tier 1-7 games where its "five people that show up with a level 1 and then a sixth person that shows up with a level..." 7. Or the one I vividly remember with three newbies with freshly minted 2nd levels, two total beginners (Iconic 1sts) and one guy insisting on playing his 7th. "Why can't they switch out and play higher level Iconics? Yeah, they have to, we're in Tier 3-4, so they have to play 4th level Iconics..."
How is your example different from that?
edit: and for the first case - I am not sure of your problem with this. The 1st level player KNEW he had to play a 1st level (he's coming in for a re-run of it right?), so I am assuming he arrived with a 1st level ready to play. Why would he be expecting to play higher level? I guess we could lobby to allow him run a 4th level Iconic and assign the CR to a 1st level PC... Is that what you are suggesting? If so, sure - I'll sign up for that. It'll be a bit odd and we'll have games where we have several players playing 4th level Iconics though... say 5 players replaying with 4th level Iconics, and a newbie with his 3rd... or maybe even 2nd level PC.
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That's the problem with this scenario. We can get a 5, 3, 4, 3,...and a 1. The guy with the 1 has already "played up" on it so he's stuck at level 1.
Or we could get five people that show up with a level 1 and then a sixth person that shows up with a level 5--and apparently at that point I as the gm am supposed to tell them that they shouldn't play the character they planned/brought with them.
Agree with Muse that your second scenario is no different than playing any other adventure.
The first problem is unique to this adventure, though. Because it's 1-5, but allows replays only at level 1, I can imagine we'll see this a lot. You'll have players showing up to play it like any other 1-5, wanting to play level 4 and 5 PCs, and then one or two people show up with level 1s ready to replay, who can't bring a higher PC even if they have one. If the high tier folks outnumber the replay folks, then those level 1s are likely to die.
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Agree with Muse that your second scenario is no different than playing any other adventure.The first problem is unique to this adventure, though. Because it's 1-5, but allows replays only at level 1, I can imagine we'll see this a lot. You'll have players showing up to play it like any other 1-5, wanting to play level 4 and 5 PCs, and then one or two people show up with level 1s ready to replay, who can't bring a higher PC even if they have one. If the high tier folks outnumber the replay folks, then those level 1s are likely to die.
Alternatively, you play 'Level 1 Keep-Away' and HOPE like heck they don't take damage.
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This was more of a matter of trying to figure out the following:
A) Does the 'level 1' for replayability rely on the level of the character played, or the level of the character the credit is applied to? The latter rather than the former seems perhaps more sensible for intent, bit this is currently the only scenario/quest series that the distinction has meaning for, so it is new territory.
And
B) There has been a lot of discussion over whether you calculate APL with pregens taken into account, or if you calculate APL first and then pregens must be played that fall into the subtier of the APL (if they exist). If the latter is the case, then I would not be able to play a level 1 pregen, as APL would dictate I have to play a 4th level pregen instead (which, depending on the result of A, might not be possible for me). Hence the question of if I could even be allowed to play a level 1 pregen (or if I need to have an original level 1)?
Take a Iconic (level 1) write up, and with a pencil add a letter Y on the end of the name... and you have an original level 1.
You may want to re-write it again later... but heck, you can do that.
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My bard's first adventure was in a scenario with a spawn-creating undead. One can imagine the pants-load-dropping when the party realized "Oh, crud, we have to keep them away from 'x' or we'll be fighting TWO of them!"
His second adventure he was doing good until the party ran into something that he would not have survived, and the guide assigned to the party realized that and put him in a safe place.
However, much as I tell a lot of people, level doesn't mean that much *sometimes*
We were playing a 1-5 at one point, 3 of us(We weren't sure but tried to go without the +1 pregen for GM sanity). After the first encounter we not only picked up our 'intern', we also hired 'local muscle'.
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Well most pregens aren't legal as-is for new characters, because of wealth spent anyhow. But I can always remake one in a more legal fashion, yes.This was more of a matter of trying to figure out the following:
A) Does the 'level 1' for replayability rely on the level of the character played, or the level of the character the credit is applied to? The latter rather than the former seems perhaps more sensible for intent, bit this is currently the only scenario/quest series that the distinction has meaning for, so it is new territory.
And
B) There has been a lot of discussion over whether you calculate APL with pregens taken into account, or if you calculate APL first and then pregens must be played that fall into the subtier of the APL (if they exist). If the latter is the case, then I would not be able to play a level 1 pregen, as APL would dictate I have to play a 4th level pregen instead (which, depending on the result of A, might not be possible for me). Hence the question of if I could even be allowed to play a level 1 pregen (or if I need to have an original level 1)?
Take a Iconic (level 1) write up, and with a pencil add a letter Y on the end of the name... and you have an original level 1.
You may want to re-write it again later... but heck, you can do that.
??? Sorry what?
I beleave almost all (all that I know of) of the Pregens are legal for gold spent on equipment. I tend to telll people who have just put a PC together to just grab all the equipment from a Pregen... that way they know they haven't spent to much and are legal, and are ready to start in 5 minutes.Which ones did you think weren't legal on money?
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I believe the barbarian has an archetype that isn't legal in PFS, which is how she gets the large sword.
And of course, the kineticist is below the minimum age for a PFS PC. Though I do know someone who managed to make a PFS legal version of that kineticist, so she could keep playing her after liking the pregen.
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A number of them have like partial charged clw wands and what not, don't they?Well most pregens aren't legal as-is for new characters, because of wealth spent anyhow. But I can always remake one in a more legal fashion, yes.This was more of a matter of trying to figure out the following:
A) Does the 'level 1' for replayability rely on the level of the character played, or the level of the character the credit is applied to? The latter rather than the former seems perhaps more sensible for intent, bit this is currently the only scenario/quest series that the distinction has meaning for, so it is new territory.
And
B) There has been a lot of discussion over whether you calculate APL with pregens taken into account, or if you calculate APL first and then pregens must be played that fall into the subtier of the APL (if they exist). If the latter is the case, then I would not be able to play a level 1 pregen, as APL would dictate I have to play a 4th level pregen instead (which, depending on the result of A, might not be possible for me). Hence the question of if I could even be allowed to play a level 1 pregen (or if I need to have an original level 1)?
Take a Iconic (level 1) write up, and with a pencil add a letter Y on the end of the name... and you have an original level 1.
You may want to re-write it again later... but heck, you can do that.
??? Sorry what?
I beleave almost all (all that I know of) of the Pregens are legal for gold spent on equipment. I tend to telll people who have just put a PC together to just grab all the equipment from a Pregen... that way they know they haven't spent to much and are legal, and are ready to start in 5 minutes.Which ones did you think weren't legal on money?
At 1st level? None that I know of... which ones have partly charged wands of anything at 1st level? Any?
The only partial wands I have seen on starting PCs are on players who got the Beginers Boon that gives a CLW wand with 5 charges - but that's on a PC, not on an Iconic.
So, I'm guessing that most of the Iconics are 1st level legal to play as a PC. Some are even CORE legal to play....
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I feel like the Arcanist might have a partial wand. I don't have her character sheet handy. I also think the Warpriest might have a partial CLW wand. I'll check them in the morning, if no one has verified or proven it incorrect by then.
Also, since someone mentioned a potential archetype earlier, to my knowledge, none of the pregens have any archetypes whatsoever. I'm pretty sure they are all meant to showcase the base version of the class.
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The first problem is unique to this adventure, though. Because it's 1-5, but allows replays only at level 1, I can imagine we'll see this a lot. You'll have players showing up to play it like any other 1-5, wanting to play level 4 and 5 PCs, and then one or two people show up with level 1s ready to replay, who can't bring a higher PC even if they have one. If the high tier folks outnumber the replay folks, then those level 1s are likely to die.That's the problem with this scenario. We can get a 5, 3, 4, 3,...and a 1. The guy with the 1 has already "played up" on it so he's stuck at level 1.
Or we could get five people that show up with a level 1 and then a sixth person that shows up with a level 5--and apparently at that point I as the gm am supposed to tell them that they shouldn't play the character they planned/brought with them.
This is the point I'm trying to make. It's replayable, but not really. You're shoe-horned into not playing, or playing a level 1 with a table of five levels fives. In every other game (i.e. games that aren't replayable) you have the option of playing a pregen in tier (unless 10-11).
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Back on topic...
I may be missing something here, but why can't you replay with a 4th Level Pregen?
It's the credit that matters. So long as the Chronicle is applied to a 1st level PC and the gold reduced to 500gp, you've met the requirements for replay.
Right?
ADDED: because the character that the credit is being applied to is decided before the game begins, there's no way it'll be applied to anything higher than 1st level.
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Back on topic...
I may be missing something here, but why can't you replay with a 4th Level Pregen?
It's the credit that matters. So long as the Chronicle is applied to a 1st level PC and the gold reduced to 500gp, you've met the requirements for replay.
Right?
What gives you the impression that he's allowed to play with a level 4 even though he's already "played up" previously in the scenario?
ADDED: because the character that the credit is being applied to is decided before the game begins, there's no way it'll be applied to anything higher than 1st level.
But he's already played up so he can't play up. Let's say there were level 2 pregens, does that mean I could replay level 2 in all of the 1-2 evergreens as long as I write on the chronicle that it's for a first level character? I don't see that logic going at all.
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The easiest fixes would have folks out with pitchforks and torches in seconds, I'm sure.
A. Change it to a L1 Evergreen and that's that.
B. Remove the replayability at L1.
C. Make it completely replayable at all levels rather than trying to shoehorn it into a thing that's not a thing...
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There are no Level 2 Pregens, so that logic doesn't work.
Right, but there are level 4 pregens, and that's the exact same scenario. The answer is he can't play with a level 4 pregen for the same reason I wouldn't be able to keep replaying a 1-2 with a hypothetical level 2 pregen.
It's only playable once outside of level 1, he's hit that threshold--pregen or no, he's stuck at level 1.
p.s. You can't take a hypothetical situation and dismiss it as not applicable because it's hypothetical and then include the word logic in your reasoning.
C. Make it completely replayable at all levels rather than trying to shoehorn it into a thing that's not a thing...
Exactly, I was flabbergasted when I heard that this was a thing for exactly this situation. It's not inclusive and creates wide gaps in the level range which is something the guide tries to explicitly make not happen.
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Back on topic...
I may be missing something here, but why can't you replay with a 4th Level Pregen?
It's the credit that matters. So long as the Chronicle is applied to a 1st level PC and the gold reduced to 500gp, you've met the requirements for replay.
Right?
ADDED: because the character that the credit is being applied to is decided before the game begins, there's no way it'll be applied to anything higher than 1st level.
The character the credit is being applied to is decided before the game, but not necessarily whether they are going to apply the chronicle immediately (dropping gold to 500), or if they are going to hold it until they are level 4. Clearly, they wouldn't be able to hold it and apply it at level 4, because then you would have two characters above 1st level with a chronicle sheet for the scenario.
I'm unclear about whether playing a 4th level pregen and assigning reduced credit immediately to a 1st level character is allowed. I don't see the harm in it, but I'm not confident it's 100% legal at this time.
Personally, I'm in the camp that just wants it to be replayable for all levels, but unfortunately, it is not currently.
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I don't see any issues.
In fact, you're actually *required* under some circumstances to use a 4th level Pregen, since Pregens are determined after APL is calculated.
If only a 3, a 4 and a 5 show up, you have to select a 4th level Pregen, because the subtier is 4-5.
Regardless of whether that Pregen is played by the GM or a 4th person.
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Let's take a look at something that IS replayable with a 4th (or 7th) level Iconic.
8-07 Tomb of R.R. would allow you to replay using 4th level Iconics. You could then lower the GP to 500 and assign the CR to a 1st level PC, correct?
House requires you to put any replays (past one play above level 1) on a 1st level PC... so why can't you run a 4th level Iconic (or even the hypothetical level 2 Iconic), as long as you reduce the GP. to 500 and assign it to a 1st level PC?
[sarcasm]Clearly that has to be prohibited! otherwise players will be DOING IT![/sarcasm]...
Heck, best way to fix this? remove it from the Replayable list.
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The easiest fixes would have folks out with pitchforks and torches in seconds, I'm sure.
A. Change it to a L1 Evergreen and that's that.
B. Remove the replayability at L1.
C. Make it completely replayable at all levels rather than trying to shoehorn it into a thing that's not a thing...
Easiest fix? is B. Remove it from the replayable list.
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In fact, you're actually *required* under some circumstances to use a 4th level Pregen, since Pregens are determined after APL is calculated.
That's not true and is also a topic for another conversation.
The current guide includes no such language that says that. We've been told by those that have influenced the guide that the original language said as much, but either through editing failures or deliberate deletions that language wasn't included.
That may be true once the season 9 guide comes out, but currently that simply isn't the case.
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Coincidentally, I was slotted to GM this tonight. Those plans were cancelled last night when we found out we only had two players, but it's good to know that this ambiguity exists going forward.
Question for those who say "no": if a player sits down at your table (not this scenario) with a 1st level Chronicle from replaying with a 4th level Pregen, what would you do?
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Coincidentally, I was slotted to GM this tonight. Those plans were cancelled last night when we found out we only had two players, but it's good to know that this ambiguity exists going forward.
Question for those who say "no": if a player sits down at your table (not this scenario) with a 1st level Chronicle from replaying with a 4th level Pregen, what would you do?
There is enough disagreement and enough room for interpretation that I accept the variance and rulings of other GMs.
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Easiest fix, imo?C: Make it completely replayable at all levels rather than trying to shoehorn it into a thing that's not a thing.
Subsequent results from Tome of Righteous Repose have indicated that it hasn't been the destabilizing factor it was feared to be.
this would make it different from all other Tier 1-5 scenarios...
The easiest fix would be to bring it back in line with all the other Tier 1-5 scenarios, by removing the replay options on it. Then it has no "special exception rules" and is treated exactly like all other scenarios.
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Easiest fix, imo?C: Make it completely replayable at all levels rather than trying to shoehorn it into a thing that's not a thing.
Subsequent results from Tome of Righteous Repose have indicated that it hasn't been the destabilizing factor it was feared to be.
this would make it different from all other Tier 1-5 scenarios...
The easiest fix would be to bring it back in line with all the other Tier 1-5 scenarios, by removing the replay options on it. Then it has no "special exception rules" and is treated exactly like all other scenarios.
Even if you remove the replayability, it's still going to be way different from any other 1-5 scenario in existence. It'll still be a series of quests playable over multiple sessions where the subtier played doesn't affect the gold awarded.
