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Been rolling this character idea around in my head for a few weeks. Will be running him in a sandbox campaign. We've decided to run a party with no traditional tank/beat-stick classes. We've got a Bard, a Wizard, an Oracle and a Slayer.
To that end, I thought I could make a tanky (ish) Magus. I like to try to mitigate the MAD problem some Magi builds can have, hence the Unchained Rogue dip. This idea cropped up because of the Bladed Brush and Redirect Attack feats. I just thought it would be awesome to play a character that lets enemies TRY to hit him and then uses it against them.
On a side note, I cleared it with my DM to use a Fauchard rather than the Glaive in conjunction with Bladed Brush. He figured since I had to to get EWP somehow, it wouldn't be abusive/OP.
A couple specific questions:
1). I considered going Hexcrafter rather than Kensai so I could stack on more debuffs. Problem is, I'd have to give up some Magus Arcana and I'd need to find a different way to get EWP. Is this a worthwhile alternative, or should I just stick with the kensai chassis?
2). I've enjoyed the Step Up feat chain in the past, but here it feels a bit tacked on. I'm sure it will still be situationally useful, but are there any other frat choices I've missed that are clearly superior?
3). The Master Poisoner bit was sort of an impulsive choice. Not an aspect of the game I'm very familiar with. Is it a totally sub-par choice? Seemed like slathering some poison on his weapon could give him some further debuffing options. If it could work, what are some good poison choices?
Really looking forward to your comments and critiques. Build below:
Daryuz Wildblood
Human magus (kensai) 9/unchained rogue 3
CG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +11; Senses Perception +15
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Defense
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AC 24, touch 21, flat-footed 13 (+3 armor, +5 Dex, +5 dodge)
hp 96 (12d8+33)
Fort +9, Ref +11, Will +7
Defensive Abilities canny defense +4, evasion
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Offense
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Speed 0 ft.
Melee +1 keen fauchard +15/+10 (1d10+8/15-20/×3 plus 2d6 sneak attack+9 Precision)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft. (10 ft. with +1 keen fauchard)
Special Attacks arcane pool (+3, 8 points), improved spell combat, magus arcana (arcane deed, flamboyant arcana), opportune parry and riposte, precise strike, sneak attack (unchained) +2d6, spellstrike
Magus (Kensai) Spells Prepared (CL 11th; concentration +15)
3rd—force hook charge[UM], haste, vampiric touch
2nd—bladed dash, blur, frigid touch[UM], mirror image
1st—grease, infernal healing[ISWG], obscuring mist, shocking grasp, shocking grasp
0 (at will)—daze (DC 14), daze (DC 14), daze (DC 14), daze (DC 14)
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Statistics
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Str 7, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 7
Base Atk +8; CMB +13 (+15 trip); CMD 26 (28 vs. trip)
Feats: Agile Maneuvers, Artful Dodge, Bladed Brush, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Redirect Attack, Slashing Grace[ACG], Step Up, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Fauchard)
Traits magical knack, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +10, Appraise +19, Escape Artist +10, Fly +10, Knowledge (arcana) +16, Knowledge (local) +19, Knowledge (planes) +15, Perception +15, Ride +3, Spellcraft +19, Stealth +14;
SQ chosen weapon, critical perfection +4, iaijutsu, master poisoner, perfect strike, poison use, rogue talent (combat trick)
Other Gear +1 lamellar cuirass[UC], +1 keen fauchard, magus starting spellbook.
It's quite debated if bladed brush works with a rogue. It seems it's something already okayed by your GM, but worth mentioning.
Step up also really doesn't work well with reach, since it only triggers if the enemy is adjacent to you, and with reach you don't want to follow if they ft away from you into your reach.
Poisons are normally to slow for PC's. Say you hit someone, the DC is fairly easy to save against, and if it does stick it deals max like 3 stat damage to something and then that thing is dead and the poison not doing anything. So they are really better for enemies against PC's since PC's are normally alive more than 1 fight.
It's quite debated if bladed brush works with a rogue. It seems it's something already okayed by your GM, but worth mentioning.
Step up also really doesn't work well with reach, since it only triggers if the enemy is adjacent to you, and with reach you don't want to follow if they ft away from you into your reach.
Poisons are normally to slow for PC's. Say you hit someone, the DC is fairly easy to save against, and if it does stick it deals max like 3 stat damage to something and then that thing is dead and the poison not doing anything. So they are really better for enemies against PC's since PC's are normally alive more than 1 fight.
Thanks for the response. The rogue/bladed brush combo shouldn't be an issue, but I'll run it by him to make sure everything is on the up and up. The last thing I want is to put a broken PC on the tabletop and detract from the experience of others.
Thanks for the insight on step up. As I said, I sort of ran out of ideas for feats (a good problem to have and one I'm not used to!), so I sort of shoehorned it in. I'll have to look at some other choices. Maybe Extra Arcana to pick up Wand Wielder, or improved disarm for some laughs.
As for the poison bit, can you recommend any Rogue archetypes that would synergize well with this build?
Not a fan of Dipping rogue on a magus. The BaB alone is enough to make me cringe. Both are d8 HD and you rely heavily on a Mirror Image to stay alive.
I agree with Chess Pwn that Poisons tend to not be worth it due to Lower DC, Price, and speed of which the combat ends. The only time I have done a poison build was a character that had a companion critter with poison built in. Even then it only happened like 20% of the time and the creature died to damage and not the poison.
Now, as far as Debuffing the Magus has that. When I built my Frostbite Whip Magus he could effectively deliver -6 to most d20 rolls on a target as well as a myriad of other status problems making it so they only get 1 attack. With the added benefits of being able to trip, disarm, dirty trick from a distance as needed. Made for a great Front or Mid-line character.
I feel you should go full magus and focus on Debuffing via Rime Frostbite and Intimidation + Cruel weapon. Your enemies will find it hard to hit you or do much damage to anyone else on the team.
Not a fan of Dipping rogue on a magus. The BaB alone is enough to make me cringe. Both are d8 HD and you rely heavily on a Mirror Image to stay alive.
I agree with Chess Pwn that Poisons tend to not be worth it due to Lower DC, Price, and speed of which the combat ends. The only time I have done a poison build was a character that had a companion critter with poison built in. Even then it only happened like 20% of the time and the creature died to damage and not the poison.
Now, as far as Debuffing the Magus has that. When I built my Frostbite Whip Magus he could effectively deliver -6 to most d20 rolls on a target as well as a myriad of other status problems making it so they only get 1 attack. With the added benefits of being able to trip, disarm, dirty trick from a distance as needed. Made for a great Front or Mid-line character.
I feel you should go full magus and focus on Debuffing via Rime Frostbite and Intimidation + Cruel weapon. Your enemies will find it hard to hit you or do much damage to anyone else on the team.
I generally dislike multi-classing and the reasons against it that you provide are definitely legitimate concerns. I don't feel like this character would struggle to get hits through, but losing an additional point of BAB is never something that should be taken lightly.
The dip does net me finesse, evasion, 2d6 sneak attack damage, some useful class skill additions and an extra combat feat that I turned into Slashing Grace.
I will definitely have to play around with this build and see how it looks at Magus/12.
Oh, there's also debate on if slashing grace works with the bladed brush feat.
I just realized I put in slashing grace when I already have DEX-to-DAM from the 3rd level of Rogue. I've replaced it with Improved Disarm.
So since you're already going 3 rogue you should take a good look at going 4 rogue, 1 more level. Debilitating injury can be a nice debuff and help the entire party. It's effectively +4 AC for you and +2 for party or +2 to hit for the party till your next turn. This also helps with BAB.
Downside is delaying spells even more, and spells are the magus' thing. So this is more like a magic rogue than a magus.
*And While I'm at it, considerable debate on bladed brush and the magus. There's just considerable debate on doing anything with the bladed brush feat if you haven't noticed ;)
I just realized I put in slashing grace when I already have DEX-to-DAM from the 3rd level of Rogue. I've replaced it with Improved Disarm.
You should not need it if you are using a reach weapon and they can not reach you back. Truestrike spell combat and you will land just about any combat maneuver.
The dip does net me finesse, evasion, 2d6 sneak attack damage, some useful class skill additions and an extra combat feat that I turned into Slashing Grace.
Since Magus is an INT based class I have never really needed more Skills than what comes with the class and a Headband of INT.
Sneak attack is ok but Never multiplied on a critical, requires Flanking or be denied dex, and is a hard sell for me.
Evasion is a nice pickup but later could be put on a ring.
The extra feat also comes with the Magus getting the extra feat.
The Finesse and dex to damage are the only things it has really going for it in my opinion but you could drop a feat or two to accomplish this. Remember that Truestrike and some Pearls of Power level 1 can let you land most your Combat maneuvers so doing agile maneuvers is not really needed. I know on my Whip magus (Dex Kansai) I had no problem landing maneuvers at all without any Agile maneuvers of Improved feats.
Agile weapons also exist should you want to save feats and do a +1 agile weapon with bladed brush. And at that high a level it is affordable. Also, does not come with the arguements of does X feat work with bladed brush.
agile and dervish dance are the only ways currently for a magus to get dex to damage. So going rogue for an interesting reach magus that works isn't a bad idea.
If you think of the mindset of starting with rogue it's an upgrade going into magus.
If you think of the mindset of starting with magus then you're correct that it's more a downgrade as you're losing an entire spell level and 3 levels of scaling on your spells.
I'm familiar with some of the issues with Bladed Brush, and they have been covered above.
I have never seen anyone who thought that bladed brush actually gave you a free hand, which you need for spell combat (and I assume that you are planning on using.)
Redirect attack seems way to situational to me. First off, they have to only be threatened by you (and they have to be threatened by you, so unless you have shortened your grip they are going to be at reach.) Then they have to fail their attack against you (I don't think popping a mirror image would count) then their has to be another opponent adjacent to you (so not attacking from reach like the other foe.) And then you have to beat the CMD of the original attacker and the AC of the target with a combat maneuver roll (which with your bab I don't see you making often.) Some of the issues are greatly lessened if you are fighting with the shortened grip, but if that is the go to plan you seem to have spent a lot of character resources for not much return. Also the whole 'on one else is threatening them' doesn't synergize too well with having sneak attack.
Personally I think your +15 to hit at level 12 is pretty pathetic. Part of that is that you are way under-geared for 12th level, but some of it is the build choices (multiclassing)
I can also see some encumbrance problems. With just your armor and fauchard you are at 18 of the 23 pounds you can carry at light load. Magic can help out a lot, but it is something you will have to pay attention to and deal with.
It just seems like you are trying to do too much and would be much better off with a much simpler character. Those three levels of rogue are costing you one 2nd, one 3rd and 4 4th level spells at this point (and you don't have any 4th level spells right now as a consequence.) I have a hard time believing that that kind of magic is worth dex-to-damage with a fauchard.
I want to start by saying I appreciate everyone taking the time to respond to my build. I feel like often when builds are posted, people feel entitled/obligated to poo-poo character choices, nitpick legality or criticize without offering alternatives or ways to improve the character. Thank you all for doing none of those things and providing useful, insightful feedback.
*And While I'm at it, considerable debate on bladed brush and the magus. There's just considerable debate on doing anything with the bladed brush feat if you haven't noticed ;)
Hahaha. I have noticed! If there are any particularly relevant or illuminating discussions on these boards I should pass along, please let me know. I wouldn't want my GM working with inadequate information.
Agile weapons also exist should you want to save feats and do a +1 agile weapon with bladed brush. And at that high a level it is affordable. Also, does not come with the arguements of does X feat work with bladed brush.
All good points. I tried cramming everything I want into a single-class Magus and I was short two feats. I think if I went that route, I'd need to switch up to a STR-based build. I'll play with that and see if I can figure it out.
I built this character out to 12th level, but we'll be starting at level one. The first few levels are already going to be rough, I suspect they might be murderous if I have to wait until I can afford a +2 weapon for my character to properly function.
Personally I think your +15 to hit at level 12 is pretty pathetic. Part of that is that you are way under-geared for 12th level, but some of it is the build choices (multiclassing)
Definitely a concern. Due to the multi-classing, this character would be weighing in at an anemic 2/3 BAB at level twelve. The heavy focus on DEX mitigates that to a degree, but definitely not entirely. However, for a single class Magus he would only be BAB +9 along with whatever he's getting from STR and magical enhancements. I'm guessing that's not too far off from the +15 here.
I can also see some encumbrance problems. With just your armor and fauchard you are at 18 of the 23 pounds you can carry at light load. Magic can help out a lot, but it is something you will have to pay attention to and deal with.
I would incorporate muleback cords into this build if I went through with it. As it stands, I only gave the character very basic magic items (weapon + armor), as the build was done quickly.
It just seems like you are trying to do too much and would be much better off with a much simpler character. Those three levels of rogue are costing you one 2nd, one 3rd and 4 4th level spells at this point (and you don't have any 4th level spells right now as a consequence.) I have a hard time believing that that kind of magic is worth dex-to-damage with a fauchard.
This is what I was worried about. I'm not looking for a world-beating, uber-optimized powerhouse. But I don't want a character that can't pull his weight because he's too schizophrenic about what his role is, either.
The loss of spells isn't a huge concern. I mean, I chose Kensai, so diminished spellcasting is something I'm alright with. I also made a conscious choice to not go the traditional "max-out-shocking-grasp-and-nova-the-bejesus-out-of-all-the-things" build either. I've played that kind of Magus and while tons of fun, I wanted to do something different. Also, Magical Knack means I'm only losing one CL. I can live with that.
Bladed brush applies to a glaive, right? How are you using it with a fauchard?
A magus doesn't need as high of an int. You could do something like 12/16+2/14/14/12/7. Using spells to help your damage you can get by the early levels, and then eventually transition to agile weapon or dervish dance.
Bladed brush applies to a glaive, right? How are you using it with a fauchard?
He got GM permission