Oh, I'd fry Azuth, too- less "three deities," more Ahriman/Ahura Mazda duality.
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Oh, I'd fry Azuth, too- less "three deities," more Ahriman/Ahura Mazda duality.
Cool. I liked him better than Mystra, but that's still not saying much, since I like ebola better than Mystra.
Might as well bag Savras (demigod of divination magic) and Velsharoon (demigod of necromancy), in the process (or have them get absorbed into Selune and Shar, respectively), make it a perfect quadfecta. :)
One thing I never entirely loved was how some 'schools' of magic got to have demigods (divination and necromancy), while Lleira, goddess of illusion magic, had to die because illusionists weren't a class anymore. Grr. It was terribly inconsistent. Either have eight of them, or have zero! Plus, an over-the-top part of me likes the idea of different demigods of the different schools, an idea explored in Green Ronin's Plot & Poison. (The demigod of abjuration was my favorite. His favored weapon was the spiked shield. His appearance was uncertain, because he was surrounded by so much defensive magic that nobody could make out his features...)
I do miss a few of the other Realms gods, 'though.
Mielikki (and Greyhawk's Ehlonna, and the Scarred Land's Tanil) scratched that female archer/huntress itch that probably started with Artemis/Diana.
Talona, Loviatar and Auril were fun, as GM tools to come up with adversaries, and Auril, in particular, would be *super* useful as a goddess known only in Irrisen (whose worship was brought over by Baba Yaga's family, and whose 'church' was exclusive only to members of the Jadwiga, who would kill anyone else with the temerity to corrupt their practices).
Tymora, goddess of luck, pretty much had patron goddess of adventurers tattooed on her butt. (Cayden Cailean, in Golarion, has the same tattoo.)
I loved the concept of pre-human deities, who had outlived the entire *species* of their first worshippers, such as Jergal, the insectoid scribe of the dead, or (hinted anyway), Aerdrie Faenya, currently an elven goddess of birds and air, but possibly also the patron goddess of the now-extinct avian progenitor race of the aarakocra.
And while I don't like pretty much anything else from the Time of Troubles, Torm sure impressed the heck out of me, and is right up there with Corean (from the Scarred Lands) and Heironeous (from Greyhawk) for Paladin-gods! (Although it is also neat the Golarion flipped the gender script and had their Paladin god be Iomedae, and their archer/hunt god be Erastil!)
Plus all of my favorite demihuman deities, from the old Roger Moore articles in the Dragon magazine, including Arvoreen, Halfling god of wee paladins, Deep Sashelas, Solonor Thelandira, the aforementioned Aerdrie, and pretty much the entire Gnomish pantheon!
And then there's the occasional oddball.
Moander, god of compost! I, uh, put you back in your pokeball and pretend I didn't choose you... Finder Wyvernspur, god of, uh, that one lizardman-variant paladin? Gosh, that's kind of specific...
Might as well bag Savras (demigod of divination magic) and Velsharoon (demigod of necromancy), in the process (or have them get absorbed into Selune and Shar, respectively), make it a perfect quadfecta. :)
I say cook 'em. My proposed paradigm has the magic deities focused on intent, not methods.
Tymora, goddess of luck, pretty much had patron goddess of adventurers tattooed on her butt. (Cayden Cailean, in Golarion, has the same tattoo.)
I preferred the pre-Moander/Dawn Cataclysm Tyche- neither Tymora nor Beshaba did much for me.
But, real talk, when it comes to weird Realms deities, I LOVED Shaundakul (despite now having Desna to do most of his schtick better, I'm still sentimentally fond of him), and LOVE Talos (who's weirdly designed, but certainly knows how to have a good time).
I liked most of the non-Faerunian pantheons in a broad sense, and fond the demigods and minor regional deities way more interesting than most of the core lineup.
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No I love FR don't kill it … ?! Please
We're not killing it. We're just removing the most powerful players and rearranging the gods.
The lands, cultures, and all else will still be there.
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Gods are part of cultures
Gods are part of cultures
Many of the gods we're talking about nuking are far younger than the cultures in question...
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The FR is a frequently very misunderstood setting. It started in the sixties as Ed Greenwood's fantasy setting for his own stories. It was later adapted to AD&D when the alternatives were Greyhawk (but with Gygax in the cold, that wasn't happening) and Dragonlance (which was a bit too tight in theme). TSR bought the rights to the setting from Ed, based on a number of early articles in Dragon Magazine. With that done, TSR reshaped it heavily, starting from the very beginning, the gray box.
What Ed's original campaign (which is apparently still running) looks like has been shown in a variety of sources: The site Candlekeep and the Ed Greenwood's Realms book, mostly. Suffice it to say that it's a far more low-magic setting, built for roleplaying and extensive lore. It would read much more like a soap opera, to my understanding. It is a setting where adults have played for decades, and much of the results had to be sanitized for the published Realms. It has villains as credible threats, and not the Keystone Kops version of the Zhentarim. Also of note: The original campaign is focused on the Heartlands, Western and Eastern, which is the area the grey box explores.
Now, it had to change when published. Remember that the project was started in the days of the Satanic Panic, Baatezu and Tanar'ri, etc. Much of what is commonly criticized about the Realms stems from this period: The removal of all assassins is the classic example. TSR had a policy much like the comics code, which guaranteed self-censorship: Helpless people could not be shown to be destroyed, nor could villains be successful. You can find this policy online somewhere. The consequences were profound, and resulted in exactly the common criticisms of meaningless villains. However, the writers were not all slaves to this, and if you read the earlier materials, you will find that there is much darkness between the lines. Simply put, the Realms is a very dangerous setting, where threats exist everywhere, adventurers tend to die in short order, and all the powerful NPCs described can really do is secure a minor area that can then act as a safe harbour. Of course, with all the villains spending their time doing slapstick, TSR focused on detailing good NPCs, exaggerating what was actually there. As an example, several of the Seven Sisters were just female characters that TSR decided to make Chosen of Mystra (which itself wasn't a term in the early Realms).
Another factor in this is the novels. According to the original deal, Ed gets the Realms back unless he gets a novel published every year (I think). I suppose it's a problem to have guaranteed publication for anyone, leading to some real stinkers (like Elminster in Hell) but what is interesting is that his novels are different in tone to other FR novels, much more reflective of his home campaign, more adult in theme, and more focused on the lore and characters. Of course, other authors wrote a LOT of FR novels, and shaped the thing thoroughly. Among other things, the Realms-Shaking Event of the week syndrome comes from this. The misadventures of the multitude of gods of various subsettings is another.
So.
If you want to make a Realms campaign, make the gods a bit more distant. That is easy. It is just as easy to ignore the POWERFUL NPCS OMGOMG. Just either remove them (but put some thought into what makes Zhentil Keep not invade the Dalelands, and who keeps the Silver Marches together), or do what I always did: Make sure the heroes have no easy way to get to talk to them. If you DO want to use them, say, Elminster, play him as he was originally envisioned: A manipulative and very powerful wizard put into place to be just as much of a problem to the heroes as support. The Return of the Archwizards trilogy played him this way: As a virtually unbeatable obstacle to the main character who he had to distract and avoid. Again and again, the Chosen of Mystra are described as only vaguely mentally stable - certainly not people the heroes can count on getting to do what they want. Nor do they simply pop in to fix things (other than in novels), they risk too much by doing so and prefer oh so much to send a few expendable adventurers in the right direction. They are callous when they have to be.
Next, up the general level of danger. The setting is full of horrible threats. Monsters, servants of evil gods, power-hungry wizards, villainous organizations with virtually unlimited resources abound. Add in rival adventurers, mercenaries, bandits, conflicts with legitimate authorities, dangerous tombs and abandoned holds, vicious politics, and your heroes should have enough to do.
I have played many campaigns in the Realms. I find the standard criticisms against the setting rather shallow. Using it is a matter of ignoring what you don't like, which is necessary anyway, since there is far too much written to use at once. Make it a setting where the role of adventurer means something. Try your best to make it live and breathe.
Just like any other setting, I'd say.
Great stuff, Sissyl.
To Sissyl's point, there was a Dungeon Mag adventure from a few years back where the Adventurer's were at the back door to Elminster's home and they almost die trying just to get an audience with him, I believe to find out
I DO think that the high level NPCs can be utilized and I as a DM have utilized them in the past. In fact just recently the PCs met the Blackstaff, he aided them in a minor way in exchange for a major boon, which he has yet to call in ;-)
Something that I would have liked are more novels at the "low-levels". I think that even before 4E they were screwing it with all those "the world is going to end by this high level event!" series. One have to wonder how somebody can harvest wheat without being pulverized by a shade archmage or something.
My opinion is that maybe you read the wrong novels. Yes, there were a lot of novels where there were characters that did impossible things and the world changed considerably... but that's really true of most novels anyway. Any general James Bond or Indiana Jones story has them being epic heroes doing epic things...
I remember reading a LOT of FR novels where the characters were 'player level' and doing 'player level' stuff and none of the 'big-names' ever showed up at all... or at best were the 'quest givers'. As a big fan of the FR Elves, I LOVED Elaine Cunningham's books and I enjoyed some of the Harper novels, and the main characters were usually underdogs doing amazing things to win in the end...
Heck, even Elminster's book had this weird way of having him be a massively powerful wizard... who was still getting curb stomped in every one of his stories. Drizzt was awesome, but his stories were really small scale. He may wipe out a horde of drow and orcs (and even that was toned down around the hunter's blade trilogy)... but unless your adventure is taking place RIGHT in his stomping grounds on that small portion of the map... Why would he ever cross your path or solve your adventure??
My problem with 4th edition forgotten realms isn't that they got rid of NPCs and gods. It's that they assumed we were all f%*~ing idiots and wouldn't want to know what happened to the NPCs and gods that died. "Who cares how Bruenor died, that was a hundred years ago!" "Malar? Oh he's gone, but we won't tell you where, or how, or why".
And the maps!! My god, the maps were terrible!! I could draw the forgotten realms on a paper bag with finger paints and a pen and get the same s&~*ty maps.
So no, it was more than "omg! They killed Khelben!"
For me it was the time jump. You skip 100 years in the future and you've abandoned any current game or group in the cold. All the books I liked, even the elf ones, dealt with humans and halflings too and were cancelled cold. There was the idea that all the NPCs were killed off, but at the same time, your own game worlds couldn't continue on the same way.
Without the time jump... Killing a few gods or changing a few rules... that could be adapted fairly easily and maybe even worked in to the continuing storyline... but 4E had a scorched earth policy of destroying everything that was familiar... and just releasing a brand new setting that used the same name.
And yes... that map was HORRENDOUS. The very mountain lake we based our home base around was scattered 200 miles apart from each other... >.<
The FR is a frequently very misunderstood setting. It started in the sixties as Ed Greenwood's fantasy setting for his own stories. It was later adapted to AD&D when the alternatives were Greyhawk (but with Gygax in the cold, that wasn't happening) and Dragonlance (which was a bit too tight in theme). TSR bought the rights to the setting from Ed, based on a number of early articles in Dragon Magazine. With that done, TSR reshaped it heavily, starting from the very beginning, the gray box.
What Ed's original campaign (which is apparently still running) looks like has been shown in a variety of sources: The site Candlekeep and the Ed Greenwood's Realms book, mostly. Suffice it to say that it's a far more low-magic setting, built for roleplaying and extensive lore. It would read much more like a soap opera, to my understanding. It is a setting where adults have played for decades, and much of the results had to be sanitized for the published Realms. It has villains as credible threats, and not the Keystone Kops version of the Zhentarim. Also of note: The original campaign is focused on the Heartlands, Western and Eastern, which is the area the grey box explores.
Now, it had to change when published. Remember that the project was started in the days of the Satanic Panic, Baatezu and Tanar'ri, etc. Much of what is commonly criticized about the Realms stems from this period: The removal of all assassins is the classic example. TSR had a policy much like the comics code, which guaranteed self-censorship: Helpless people could not be shown to be destroyed, nor could villains be successful. You can find this policy online somewhere. The consequences were profound, and resulted in exactly the common criticisms of meaningless villains. However, the writers were not all slaves to this, and if you read the earlier materials, you will find that there is much darkness between the lines. Simply put, the Realms is a very dangerous setting, where threats exist everywhere, adventurers tend to die in short order, and all...
Oh come now.
Elminster literally f&!@s his girlfriends across the sky while they tour the realms. That was a story by greenwood. That's not adult in any sense other than the one I enjoy.
The only adventures where the realm is shown to be dangerous in any way was written by Byers, Kemp, or a contemporary. Everything else is awful good vs lawful stupid vs keystone kop evil. It's the only reason why the zhents/drow/moander/whoever hasn't taken over the place. Moreover, distant gods are not for the forgotten realms setting, where anyone can get healing for negotiable gold if you dont worship the deity and if you dont worship any deity you arent coming back from the dead- in fact it is the setting that started that last bit of nonsense. The idea of forgotten realms as a low magic setting is completely laughable. Only that one part of mystara with black puddings acting as magical garbage disposals has more commonplace magic- and I think halruaa or whatever was supposed to be a parody of that place.
. . . awful good vs lawful stupid . . .
I would like to notate that one of the primary characters that encapsulated both of these traits within the same series was a certain Lathanderian Paladin in "The Twilight War" trilogy . . . written by Paul S Kemp. I loved that trilogy, but that character was wholly pathetic in every way possible.
Azure Bonds was a fairly low level adventure. They were at the sweet spot where a band of orcs or goblins was worth hiding from, but a troll could be one-shot (or at least defeated) by a single warrior. The wizard gaining 3rd level spells mid-way through the novel was kind of a big deal (granted, he probably had a couple levels in expert too...).
The Wyvern's Spur was even lower level, with lots of NPC classed main characters (mostly aristocrats, and as Batman demonstrates, being rich can be a superpower, so take that with a grain of salt. Or saffron, because they're rich!).
Azure Bonds even has Elminster, but he's more of a quest-helper or quest nudger than a quest giver or magus ex machina.
Azure Bonds was my first introduction to the Forgotten Realms, and the heroine has amnesia, so I was learning about the Realms as she did.
Way to read only what you want to see, Freehold.
Greenwood is not a great writer. I said as much. However, you were aware that he was frustrated because TSR and later WotC pushed for him to write more Elminster novels? And it isn't as if all his books are terrible.
As for low-magic, did you read the gray box? It is not as far-fetched as you think. Sure, tons and tons and tons of magic has been added by scads of people, but that doesn't mean it has to be done that way if you don't want to.
You're a smart guy. Challenge yourself. See if you could do something worthwhile with it instead of chanting that it's just bad. Stuff you might want to take a look at: The gray box, Forgotten Realms Adventures, volo's Guide to the Sword Coast, Power of Faerun, and Faiths and Avatars should give you a good starting point. As for Novels, I would suggest you dig up a copy of Realms of Infamy, which has a pretty rough perspective of the Realms.
Way to read only what you want to see, Freehold.
Greenwood is not a great writer. I said as much. However, you were aware that he was frustrated because TSR and later WotC pushed for him to write more Elminster novels? And it isn't as if all his books are terrible.
As for low-magic, did you read the gray box? It is not as far-fetched as you think. Sure, tons and tons and tons of magic has been added by scads of people, but that doesn't mean it has to be done that way if you don't want to.
You're a smart guy. Challenge yourself. See if you could do something worthwhile with it instead of chanting that it's just bad. Stuff you might want to take a look at: The gray box, Forgotten Realms Adventures, volo's Guide to the Sword Coast, Power of Faerun, and Faiths and Avatars should give you a good starting point. As for Novels, I would suggest you dig up a copy of Realms of Infamy, which has a pretty rough perspective of the Realms.
power of faerun? The intrigue and realm building guide? I found that book passing interesting and flip through it on occasion. Despite my complaints about specialty priests and such, the two books from forgotten realms I cannot stop reading gamewise are wizards and rogues and warriors and priests of the realms. Always some good stuff there, always something that gets my mind working. Still, reading it is like touching saidin before it was cleansed.
. . . awful good vs lawful stupid . . .I would like to notate that one of the primary characters that encapsulated both of these traits within the same series was a certain Lathanderian Paladin in "The Twilight War" trilogy . . . written by Paul S Kemp. I loved that trilogy, but that character was wholly pathetic in every way possible.
I'm sorry we disagree here. He was a good example of a falling, fallen, and then redeemed paladin, especially with forgotten realms ass backward approach to paladins.
Um, Dragonbait yo!
I read Paul Kemp's books. I wasn't impressed.
Wizards and Rogues and Warriors and Priests of the Realms are very good books, yes.
I suppose what I am selling is that the Realms is a big enough setting to encompass many different visions of what a FR game should be like. With FR, you can, and have to, focus on what you like. If you don't like the powerful NPCs, ignore them. Be careful about novels. Understand that the novel is about a vision that may not fit yours.
Oh, and I have expounded at great length on why 4th edition Realms needs to die in a fire.
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I have been running D&D games since 1989, most of them set in the Forgotten realms. Not once have I had an issue with high level npcs stealing the spotlight from the player characters. I haven't even mentioned Elminster in game. If you let npcs ruin your game that is your fault, not the fault of the setting.
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Oh, and I have expounded at great length on why 4th edition Realms needs to die in a fire.
<Hands Sissyl some matches>
Gosh, some of those kits from Wizards and Rogues of the Realms were funky! (Ah, kits. The Archetypes of 2nd edition AD&D.)
I think my favorite FR kit was the Totem-Sister kit for Druids, from Elves of Evermeet, IIRC. So, so overpowered, that I, *as a player,* asked to house rule some extra limitations to it.
(Well, unless the Shair, from Al-Qadim, counts as a FR kit, 'cause that was my absolute favorite!)
Is the Realms the only setting that has had an actual Halfling country (Lurien, or something?). Settings like Golarion and Scarn and Greyhawk tend to have them living among humans, in human dominated countries, while they were savage (dinosaur-riding! cannibal!) plains nomads in Eberron, and as for Krynn, no, I refuse to remember them... Gah, and the gnomes of Mt. Nevermind. And the gully dwarves! The pain!
Mystara had the Five Shires. Designed by Ed Greenwood.
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Um, Dragonbait yo!
I read Paul Kemp's books. I wasn't impressed.
If you want to make a Realms campaign, make the gods a bit more distant.
In our Zakhara game, religion is a big part of the game. Every character is religious and pray many times per day.
So someone can be a sailor (background) rogue (class) but be just as defined by their chosen god (Najm).
And when you do Channel Divinity from 5e, I've ruled that you become the deity for a moment. I dunno… we thought that was cool.
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Oh, and I have expounded at great length on why 4th edition Realms needs to die in a fire.<Hands Sissyl some matches>
Gosh, some of those kits from Wizards and Rogues of the Realms were funky! (Ah, kits. The Archetypes of 2nd edition AD&D.)
I think my favorite FR kit was the Totem-Sister kit for Druids, from Elves of Evermeet, IIRC. So, so overpowered, that I, *as a player,* asked to house rule some extra limitations to it.
(Well, unless the Shair, from Al-Qadim, counts as a FR kit, 'cause that was my absolute favorite!)
Is the Realms the only setting that has had an actual Halfling country (Lurien, or something?). Settings like Golarion and Scarn and Greyhawk tend to have them living among humans, in human dominated countries, while they were savage (dinosaur-riding! cannibal!) plains nomads in Eberron, and as for Krynn, no, I refuse to remember them... Gah, and the gnomes of Mt. Nevermind. And the gully dwarves! The pain!
halflings were cannibalistic in dark sun. The most awesome setting ever that, thankfully, had nothing to do with forgotten realms in all but the most potentially post apocalyptic sense. In fact, that what friends used to sell me on dark sun.
It will grow back unless you burn them all.
I have been running D&D games since 1989, most of them set in the Forgotten realms. Not once have I had an issue with high level npcs stealing the spotlight from the player characters. I haven't even mentioned Elminster in game. If you let npcs ruin your game that is your fault, not the fault of the setting.
yeah, I've heard that one before. Didn't buy it then, didn't buy it now. For every fan whon swears this doesn't happen, I have a legion of fans whose every character was a drizzt or elminster clone or kept demanding to know where they were or would not. Shut. Up. About how fast it would take elminster or drizzt to take over the setting they were playing in until the game returned to FR.
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It will grow back unless you burn them all.
While I admire your enthusiasm, I'd just like to point out that a lot if not most of the stuff is officially available in digital format in the meantime.
So unless your plan is to make planet earth inhabitable by escalating the climate change I'd probably try something else.
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It will grow back unless you burn them all.
While I admire your enthusiasm, I'd just like to point out that a lot if not most of the stuff is officially available in digital format in the meantime.
So unless your plan is to make planet earth inhabitable by escalating the climate change I'd probably try something else.
it's worth it to watch the realms burn.
Dark Sun was awesome.
Wow Freehold and I agree on something! ;)
It will grow back unless you burn them all.
While I admire your enthusiasm, I'd just like to point out that a lot if not most of the stuff is officially available in digital format in the meantime.
So unless your plan is to make planet earth inhabitable by escalating the climate change I'd probably try something else.
it's worth it to watch the realms burn.
Um, Dragonbait yo!
I read Paul Kemp's books. I wasn't impressed.
Cars!!!
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Another thing. I still have this plan in mind for this big Pathfinder AP -adaption to the Realms where several APs are interconnected and then are followed up by a big showdown with the real BBEGs behind it all. I already have the BBEGs in mind and some ideas where several APs could take place (hint: I'm a big fan of everything Steven E. Schend).
Problem only being that if I want to get this done in my lifetime, I'd probably had to run all those APs simultaneously. And the last time I tried a similar thing it ende with a huge GM burnout. Nothing I would want to repeat.
But the Realms might just be worth it.
I have been running D&D games since 1989, most of them set in the Forgotten realms. Not once have I had an issue with high level npcs stealing the spotlight from the player characters. I haven't even mentioned Elminster in game. If you let npcs ruin your game that is your fault, not the fault of the setting.yeah, I've heard that one before. Didn't buy it then, didn't buy it now. For every fan whon swears this doesn't happen, I have a legion of fans whose every character was a drizzt or elminster clone or kept demanding to know where they were or would not. Shut. Up. About how fast it would take elminster or drizzt to take over the setting they were playing in until the game returned to FR.
A couple things, I'm not selling anything, I've played hundreds of games in FR without having issues with high power npcs. Why would you play D&D with players who want to be a Drizzt or Elminster?
Why would you play D&D with players who want to be a Drizzt or Elminster?
Well, why would you not?, people trying to recreate characters from fictions is like the most standard thing ever.
Um, Dragonbait yo!
I read Paul Kemp's books. I wasn't impressed.
The only Christmas cards I get are from my wife's parents, my brother who gives one to everyone instead of Christmas presents, and Paizo. :-)
If your spite for Forgotten Realms is so great it compels you to attack everyone that has touched or defended it, go nuts. But I'll save my spite for someone or something that truly deserves it.
I wish you well.
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Why would you play D&D with players who want to be a Drizzt or Elminster?
Heh, I had that once when a female player came up with a Drizz't clone paladin. She hadn't played D&D before but had read the Salvatore novels, so Drizz't was obviously the character that drew her into the game. It actually turned out to be an interesting character as it developed over time and said player has played quite a few totally different characters after that.
I'm glad that I didn't try to force her to play another character.
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Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person who kind of liked the 4e Forgotten Realms. Though that's mainly because I find the concept of the Spell Plague and the Spell Scarred to be fascinating.
Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person who kind of liked the 4e Forgotten Realms. Though that's mainly because I find the concept of the Spell Plague and the Spell Scarred to be fascinating.
You are not alone. I have some half baked ideas about a sandbox game set in the East Rift/Underchasm area.
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Whenever I played Darksun, we always started out as slaves with no equipment, so we either died fast during a slave rebellion or died slow fleeing into the wastelands.
:-(
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Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person who kind of liked the 4e Forgotten Realms. Though that's mainly because I find the concept of the Spell Plague and the Spell Scarred to be fascinating.
I actually kind of liked the 4E Realms as well. My main problem with it was that I had no intention whatsoever to give up on the game I ran at that time, especially as one of the main reasons that attracted me to the Realms was the slow passage of years and the metaplot that came with that.
The Spellplague itself wasn't my problem. I thought the in-setting explanation for it was stupid as hell, but as I already had survived the Time of Troubles (which was equally stupid), that didn't bother me very much. And if they had just continued Realmsplay in the old time, I would probably have loved to run games in the Spellplague period.
But they made a 100-year jump. The resulting Realms were nice, but by far not as interesting to me as the old Realms had been. And to play in them would have invalidated several years of gameplay and all the old materials that I had used in those.
But as a setting per se, I didn't think the 4E Realms were horrible. The Neverwinter Book was actually pretty good, as were a lot of the Realms articles in Dragon Magazine. So I actually steal quite a lot of it, it's just that I don't use it in the context to which the stuff was written.
We'll see how I handle 5E stuff, as I'm just getting into it. Probably the same way, changing details and dates so that it fits in my own Realms chronology.
Wizards and Rogues and Warriors and Priests of the Realms are very good books, yes.
I suppose what I am selling is that the Realms is a big enough setting to encompass many different visions of what a FR game should be like. With FR, you can, and have to, focus on what you like. If you don't like the powerful NPCs, ignore them. Be careful about novels. Understand that the novel is about a vision that may not fit yours.
Oh, and I have expounded at great length on why 4th edition Realms needs to die in a fire.
I agree with all of this. Those were some of my favorite Realms books of all time. ESPECIALLY the Rogues. I hated the original Complete Thieves handbook with a passion. All the kits did was give you penalties with no bonuses... They were more RP guides than actual mechanical kits. The difference between taking a pirate kit and just playing a vanilla rogue who called himself a pirate was always substandard. It had some great gear and stuff... but the kits sucked. Wizards and Rogues of the Realms had some AMAZING kits that I just loved in it. Kits done right. Special bonuses AND penalties that balanced rather nicely and still looked appealing. Catburgler was one I always wanted to play but didn't get to... Mage of Halruaa though... THAT I did get to do, that was fun!!
As for powerful NPCs... I agree too. The setting was so big that anything could be done there. I'm a huge Comic fan, so I'm used to the idea of Batman printing comics for 80 years without Superman swooping in and saving the day EVERY TIME... There should be high level characters in any setting who are dealing with their own crisis' and I've never had a problem with that. This is what everyone has done forever! Thor isn't there to solve all of Daredevil's problems... Silver surfer isn't stealing Captain America's thunder... there's plenty of danger and intrigue to go around.
Use them for a fun cameo or a bard tale when your heroes are in the tavern... but they hardly have the time or the inclination to solve every problem ever.
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Um, Dragonbait yo!
I read Paul Kemp's books. I wasn't impressed.
The only Christmas cards I get are from my wife's parents, my brother who gives one to everyone instead of Christmas presents, and Paizo. :-)
If your spite for Forgotten Realms is so great it compels you to attack everyone that has touched or defended it, go nuts. But I'll save my spite for someone or something that truly deserves it.
I wish you well.
Oh no, you are still getting your Christmas cards. No Christmas cars for you, though.
Whenever I played Darksun, we always started out as slaves with no equipment, so we either died fast during a slave rebellion or died slow fleeing into the wastelands.
:-(
DARK SUN FOREVER
A couple things, I'm not selling anything, I've played hundreds of games in FR without having issues with high power npcs. Why would you play D&D with players who want to be a Drizzt or Elminster?I have been running D&D games since 1989, most of them set in the Forgotten realms. Not once have I had an issue with high level npcs stealing the spotlight from the player characters. I haven't even mentioned Elminster in game. If you let npcs ruin your game that is your fault, not the fault of the setting.yeah, I've heard that one before. Didn't buy it then, didn't buy it now. For every fan whon swears this doesn't happen, I have a legion of fans whose every character was a drizzt or elminster clone or kept demanding to know where they were or would not. Shut. Up. About how fast it would take elminster or drizzt to take over the setting they were playing in until the game returned to FR.
any time I ask that question, I am shouted down by people who swear their character is NOT elminster or drizzt (even if they have part of their name in their characters name) or am treated to an hour's long diatribe on how there would be no role-playing games without Greenwood or how Salvatore is the greatest writer to ever pick up a pen. And i know you aren't selling anything, it's just an old saying I enjoy.
Please don't burn down the realms :(
Reading this thread is the daily horror for me :(
I read the first six Salvatore books. I had to stop after that. Still, they were actually fun. I have never had to face a Driz'zt clone in a game.
An important thing that needs to be said: TSR published so many settings that were often successes among the fans. Planescape, Ravenloft, and Dark Sun are likely the most storied, but Spelljammer, Mystara, Council of Wyrms, and a number of minor ones like Jakandor, isle of War were also published. And this is not to mention the various sub-settings of the primary settings: Zakhara, The Hordelands, Maztica, Taladas etc. This was possible because there were a good number of people who bought everything they put out, vastly lower production values, and being their own business and being able to set their own targets.
Freehold's hate for FR seems to primarily hinge on the idea that since the other settings were slashed, and FR wasn't, it was the FR's fault they were. I guess I can see that reasoning, but it doesn't work. TSR published everything they could think of. Some of it was fantastic. Due to various poor decisions, they foundered, and when WotC took over, they made an analysis of what had been going wrong. They decided on two things: Splitting the fanbase (aka all these settings), and not getting enough feedback from the fans.
When 3rd edition was published, FR wasn't even the default setting for the game. It then took them a good while to put out the FRCS for 3rd (a very good book). The other settings were gone already. If you want to blame anything for their loss, blame the publishing policy of huge, lavish books with gigantic production values. That rather makes niche products impossible.
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Please don't burn down the realms :(
Reading this thread is the daily horror for me :(
I understand. I really do.
Thing is, if I were in charge of FR publishing and wanted to really try to burn it to the ground, I would do this:
Nuke the setting from orbit. Based on a plotline that people spent three mega adventure books to prevent, just to show that I don't care about continuity. Make it a post-apocalyptic wasteland complete with mutants. Then, to eradicate every NPC around, make a 100 year time jump so they are dead. Restore it to pseudoomedieval fantasy. Redraw the map, wait, scratch that, keep the map EXACTLY the same, because nothing of significance happened in the last 100 years. Add in an extra continent with... stuff... that was very dragon themed but had no connection. Then publish a player's guide, a DM guide and an adventure that again had nothing to do with established facts of the setting. Followed by... nothing for years.
i.e. precisely what WotC did in 4th edition Realms.
Apparently they got over themselves at some point, because they restarted it with some stuff toward the end of 4th. This was decent, apparently, but I haven't read it.
5th edition did all they could to apologize about all this, without actually saying it. Everything is now back to where it was, mostly. Dates are kept extremely vague. It all screams "you can use this and ignore 4th", which is good.
The 3e/3.5e stuff for FR was excellent - I loved the various books that came out focussing on particular regions/cities. The amount of lore available (lists of beers! Lists of cheeses! What with all the fuss about craft beer, it's surprising that no-one's brought out a range of FR-themed brews yet) has always been my favourite thing about the setting.
I've done most of my campaigning in the Realms, and all we've ever done is murderhobo (or slaughter-tramp, since we don't have hoboes over here) around burning down kobold villages and suchlike, with never a super-powered goddess-ponking wizard or emo drow in sight.
I read the first six Salvatore books. I had to stop after that. Still, they were actually fun. I have never had to face a Driz'zt clone in a game.
An important thing that needs to be said: TSR published so many settings that were often successes among the fans. Planescape, Ravenloft, and Dark Sun are likely the most storied, but Spelljammer, Mystara, Council of Wyrms, and a number of minor ones like Jakandor, isle of War were also published. And this is not to mention the various sub-settings of the primary settings: Zakhara, The Hordelands, Maztica, Taladas etc. This was possible because there were a good number of people who bought everything they put out, vastly lower production values, and being their own business and being able to set their own targets.
Freehold's hate for FR seems to primarily hinge on the idea that since the other settings were slashed, and FR wasn't, it was the FR's fault they were. I guess I can see that reasoning, but it doesn't work. TSR published everything they could think of. Some of it was fantastic. Due to various poor decisions, they foundered, and when WotC took over, they made an analysis of what had been going wrong. They decided on two things: Splitting the fanbase (aka all these settings), and not getting enough feedback from the fans.
When 3rd edition was published, FR wasn't even the default setting for the game. It then took them a good while to put out the FRCS for 3rd (a very good book). The other settings were gone already. If you want to blame anything for their loss, blame the publishing policy of huge, lavish books with gigantic production values. That rather makes niche products impossible.
I hate forgotten realms with every bone in my body, but even I have to admit that first frcs book was amazing. We were ready to see other campaign settings get that treatment. But it didn't happen. The other settings were NOT gone, I am literally staring at my ravenloft and dragonlance settings right now. These works were rushed or brain drained(dragonlance moreso) in favor of more stuff for FR.
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but even I have to admit that first frcs book was amazing. We were ready to see other campaign settings get that treatment.
Oh, a Greyhawk hardcover that had the same level of sheer flavor *and* mechanics as the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting would have set my world on fire. That was a great book, and I love how it took the 'generic' rules and adapted them as necessary for the Realms setting (the optional multiclassing for monks and paladins, for instance, or the option for a paladin to worship Sune, despite her being CG). That sort of book is great to differentiate setting-specific rules (or exceptions) like 'no Clerics of philosophy' that differentiate from the core rules.
The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer was amazing, and also had a few mechanical exceptions (Clerics of Istus could take the Chaos *and* Law domains!, Clerics of Heironeous had both longsword *and* battleaxe as favored weapons!), but didn't feel quite as 'full' as the FRCS (and obviously had a lot less follow-up products than the FRCS...).
Speaking of the Forgotten Realms, there's a Neverwinter MMO that's actually pretty decent (and free-ish). It's crawling with Realms flavor. (You even get to take quests from Elminster, and fight alongside characters like Drizzt and Regis and Bruenor, although not so much that it's annoying or anything, if you don't particularly like those characters). I didn't get the same sense of whacky nostalgia that I did fighting alongside Nightwing and Power Girl, in DC Online, but it was still kind of neat, and particularly fun to see creatures like slaad or bar-igura or bulettes or dracoliches, that are more specifically AD&D-ish than more generic fantasy beasties like trolls and dragons.
Running from cloudkill spells, on the other hand, not so much fun. Friggin' death slaad... :)