Damage taken when both 'Shield Other' and 'Unwilling Shield' are applied

[llaletin]

Hypothetical question: If a big bad Boss has Shield Other cast on him by an Ally before battle with the PCs commences and then the Boss also successfully casts Unwilling Shield on one of the PCs, what would the end result be when the Boss is hit for damage?
- Ally takes 50%, PC takes 50%, Boss takes 0%? Would be ideal, but doesn't seem right...
- Ally takes 25%, PC takes 25%, Boss takes 50%? Would be a waste of time casting Unwilling Shield.
- Ally takes 25%, PC takes 50%, Boss takes 25%, because Unwilling Shield is the more powerful spell and comes into effect first and then Shield Other halves it again?
- Ally takes 0%, PC takes 50%, Boss takes 50%, because Unwilling Shield is the more powerful spell and overrides Shield Other whilst it is active? (This, I suspect is the mostly likely outcome)

Thank-you in advance for any rules clarifications on the above scenario.

[Claxon]

This is the same as asking, what happens if you're the target of Shield Other twice.

I don't know that there is an actual rules answer.

[James Risner]

Ask your GM.

I'd say that spell is so similar to Shield Other I might want to treat it as a duplicate spell and the most recent one works and the other stays dormant expending duration.

If I had to cobble together something of a ruling, I would give each target 33%.

[Dave Justus]

I agree with Claxon that their isn't an answer on how these would be applied, except I think their is a general concept that the caster can apply the effects happen in the more favorable order, in which case the Ally 25%, PC 50%, Boss 25% would be the chosen one (I believe you have to apply one and then the other if you are looking at it this way, so the 0% is out.)

There is one other possibility, it is a bit of a stretch of interpretation of the rules, but when damage is multiplied more then once it adds, i.e. critical hit and charge with a lance are both x2, but you don't take go damage x2 x2 = damage x4, you instead add, for damage x3.

If we apply a similar principle when dividing damage as we do when we multiply, then 2 halves = 1/3, and each participant in the shield other would take 1/3 of the damage. I would personally probably go with this solution, since it is easy to calculate and easily scales, so if you have 50 guys all shielding one guy it is pretty easy to figure out how much they each take (1/51 in that case.) As I said though, this is interpreting dividing damage should work like multiplicative damage, and the rules certainly don't say to do that.

[N N 959]

First off, since deflection bonuses don't stack, the target only gets +1 to AC. Technically, the resistance bonus is untyped, so it should stack. Arguably it is typed as a "resistance" bonus and therefore doesn't stack. A PDT ruling is most likely not going to to allow either bonuses to stack, so only +1 AC and +1 saves.

Regarding the damage mitigation, I see two options:

1. An order of application is determined (let's say the highest spell level cast goes first). The primary spell splits 50% of the damage. So in this case, the unwilling recipient takes 5 of the 10 damage. Then, the second spell kicks in and the Ally takes 2 damage (because you always round down) and the ally takes 3 damage. So from a 10 point strike the unwilling ally takes 5, the ally takes 3, and the target takes 2.

2. The other option is that they don't stack in terms of damage. One spell functions and the target takes 5 damage .

It's important to note that going back to 3.5 and continuing in Pathfinder, the paradigm for rules interpretation is always to screw the PC. Rules are typically interpreted in a manner least favorable to the PC. In this case, however, the rules will apply to both PC and hostile NPC. So a more PC neutral interpretation is probably warranted.

The other challenge here is that there are no rules for determine the order of operations for overlapping spells. The closest we get is element Protection on top of element Resistance. In that case, the rules tell us the Protection gets burned up first (as this is least favorable to the PC) before and Resistance applies. But that's not a general rule, it's specific to these two spells, so that doesn't really help except that we can surmise that overlapping spells can both be active (spell is cast and duration runs), we just don't know if both function simultaneously or, in the spirit of non-stacking, one masks the other.

[James F.D. Graham]

My gut reaction is to apply them in the same order they were cast so, in your example, shield other splits the damage 50/50 between ally and BBEG then unwilling shield splits what the BBEG takes again with the PC in question.

but, like I said; total gut reaction. I have no rules to back that up with.

Fantastic question though!

[Saethori]

N N 959 wrote:

First off, since deflection bonuses don't stack, the target only gets +1 to AC. Technically, the resistance bonus is untyped, so it should stack. Arguably it is typed as a "resistance" bonus and therefore doesn't stack. A PDT ruling is most likely not going to to allow either bonuses to stack, so only +1 AC and +1 saves.

PDT ruling not necessary.

Shield Other wrote:

This spell wards the subject and creates a mystic connection between you and the subject so that some of its wounds are transferred to you. The subject gains a +1 deflection bonus to AC and a +1 resistance bonus on saves. Additionally, [...]

Unwilling Shield wrote:

Like shield other, unwilling shield creates a mystic connection between you and the target, but unlike shield other, the target shares the wounds that you receive. In addition, the link draws upon the target’s life force to supplement your own defenses. You gain a +1 luck bonus to AC and on saving throws. You take [...]

Shield Other provides +1 Deflection to AC and +1 Resistance to saves.

Unwilling Shield provides +1 Luck to AC and +1 Luck to saves.

They stack on this regard.

[N N 959]

Saethori wrote:

Quote:

You gain a +1 luck bonus to AC and on saving throws. You take [...]

Shield Other provides +1 Deflection to AC and +1 Resistance to saves.

Unwilling Shield provides +1 Luck to AC and +1 Luck to saves.

They stack on this regard.

Ah. I must have been reading the Shield Other entry and thought I was reading Unwilling Shield on the bonus. Yes, in this case, they would stack.

And before anyone else points it out, just looked it up, "resistance" is an official bonus type that would not stack with itself.