| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
What happens when something outside the grapple tries to move one of the participants?
Lets say a friendly is grappled and you want to bulrush the friend away from the grappler.
A) The effect moves all participants.
B) There is an opposed check, bulrush vs. grapple CMD of the grappler.
C) The effect moves the target and if the target is out of the grappler's reach the grapple is broken.
Does this change if you were to try to move the grappler; say to push him off a cliff?
Does this change if magic is involved?
1) Someone teleports one of the participants away.
2) Someone opens a pit under the grapplers and only one of them makes the saving throw.
Lets say a friendly is grappled and you want to bulrush the friend away from the grappler.
There's no official ruling about what happens in those scenarios IIRC, so it would be subject at GM's discretion. Bullrush never says it breaks for free another maneuver in place, I'd stick with B), but there's a scenario for A)
A) Since the bullrush target is moved in a straight line, If both grappler and grappled are in the same line you should bullrush both.
B) In any other scenario where you're bullrushing from another direction, I'd roll either an opposed CMB (Bullrush) vs CMB (Grapple) check, or, as you said, a CMB vs CMD. If the grapple wins then the grappler should maintain the grapple and you'd have to bullrush both (I'd place the grappled character "in line"); if the Bullrush wins then the grapple would be broken and you'd drag only your intended target.
Still, this is my personal opinion.
Does this change if magic is involved?
1) Someone teleports one of the participants away.
Teleport has this aiming descriptor:
Target you and touched objects or other touched willing creatures
1-. Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
2-. You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.
First, you cannot declare creature as target for teleporting unless that creature is willing. In the case of someone grappling another, if one of them doesn't declare he's willing that creature cannot be a target for the spell.
Second, the caster can decide which creature is a target and which one is not, so even if the caster is touching several creatures it's the caster's choice to declare whose of them are targets and whose are not (upt to the spell limits).
Third, target is decided when the spell comes into effect, so the teleport will happen (and the spell expended) nonetheless. Of course, teleport destination is also decided at the same time.
2) Someone opens a pit under the grapplers and only one of them makes the saving throw.how I'd do it.
Id' roll again the grapple check in this scenario. If the grappler succeeds he can either hold the grappled creaturefrom the pit (in case he succeeded the saving throw), or drag along the grappled down the pit (if he was the one that failed the savign throw)
Yeah, no clear rules on this but I'd rule about like Yorien.
Definitely no automatically breaking the grapple, or cheesing things by trying to target your ally and go against their CMD which the "voluntarily lower" so you effectively automatically succeed.
Either option A or B, but I'm not sure which I would go with.
I would probably go with a version of option B, where you have to make the check against the grappler's grapple check. If you exceed it then you break them apart, and if you also beat his CMD vs bullrush you move him away from the target per normal bullrush rules.
Otherwise, the grappler hangs onto the target and both are moved together per the rules for bullrushing one target.
As for using something like teleport...if the casters get close enough to the target I suppose there's nothing much to be done about. I can't think of a reason for it not to work. For a caster in a grapple, if they can succeed on the concentration check teleport or dimension door will simply work. In this case, the caster isn't grappled and so it simply succeeds. Unfortunately magic is well...magical like that. It's part of why it pays to be a tetori monk I guess.