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My question is if I have four arms (Two Vestigial) and each arm is holding a gun and I use leaping shot, am I able to count those vestigial arms as wielding firearms for the purposes of making those 4 attacks? I'm reading it as Leaping Shot being the attack routine and not granting extra attacks or actions, but I'd like to hear your thoughts.
I highlighted what I find the important parts below.
Leaping Shot:
As a full-round action, you can move up to your speed and make firearm attacks at your highest base attack bonus with each loaded firearm you are wielding.
Vestigial Arm:
The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist's attack routine (using two-weapon fighting).
No.
Would those arms give you more attacks than what you could normally make if you only had two arms? Yes, so you can't make them.
Alchemist, Tentacle/Vestigial Arm: What does "extra attacks" mean for these discoveries?
It means "extra," as in "more than you would be able to make if you didn't have that discovery."
For example, if you're low-level alchemist who uses two-weapon fighting, you can normally make two attacks per round (one with each weapon). If you take the tentacle discovery, on your turn you can make
* two weapon attacks but no tentacle attack,
* a weapon attack with your left hand plus a secondary tentacle attack, or
* a weapon attack with your right hand plus a secondary tentacle attack.
At no time can you make a left hand weapon attack, a right hand weapon attack, and a tentacle attack on the same turn because the tentacle discovery says it "does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round." This language is calling out that the tentacle is not a standard natural weapon and doesn't follow the standard rules for using natural weapons (which would normally allow you to make the natural weapon attack in addition to your other attacks).Likewise, if you instead took the vestigial arm discovery and put a weapon in that arm's hand, on your turn you can make
* a weapon attack with your left hand and one with your right hand,
* a weapon attack with your right hand and one with your vestigial arm, or
* a weapon attack with your left hand and one with your vestigial arm,
At no time can you make a left hand weapon attack, a right hand weapon attack, and a vestigial hand weapon attack on the same turn because the vestigial arm discovery says it "does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round."
The exact same restrictions would apply if your race had claws or you had some other ability to add claws to your limbs: the text of both discoveries says they do not give you any extra attacks per round, whether used as natural weapons, wielding manufactured weapons, or adding natural weapons to a limb that didn't originally have natural weapons.Remember that these two discoveries do not have any level requirements, and therefore are not especially powerful; permanently adding additional attacks per round is beyond the scope of a discovery available to 2nd-level alchemists.
No.
Would those arms give you more attacks than what you could normally make if you only had two arms? Yes, so you can't make them.
Alchemist, Tentacle/Vestigial Arm: What does "extra attacks" mean for these discoveries?
It means "extra," as in "more than you would be able to make if you didn't have that discovery."
Thanks for your reply!
As a thought experiment, if I was able to make 4 attacks through iterative attacks and 2 weapon fighting, would I then suddenly be able to use Leaping Shot with all four arms?
At that point there are no "extra" attacks by that definition, I'd be able to make 4 attacks without the arms anyway and they still meet the "wielded firearm" requirement of leaping shot.
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I don't know what these two are talking about.
By RAW, you absolutely can make additional attacks with your vestigial firearms. The deed itself says "every loaded firearm you are wielding" not "every loaded firearm that you are wielding in your natural limbs."
Just keep in mind that you'll still take the TWF penalties for using multiple guns, since that's how attacking with multiple weapons works.
These three. Soon to be 8 or 10...
No.
Vestigial arms doesn't let you make more attacks. You are trying to use vestigial arms to make more attacks. It doesn't work. Just because one ability allows you to make more attacks doesn't mean that the other abilities go along with it despite the very specific restrictions then have on them.
As a thought experiment, if I was able to make 4 attacks through iterative attacks and 2 weapon fighting, would I then suddenly be able to use Leaping Shot with all four arms?
At that point there are no "extra" attacks by that definition, I'd be able to make 4 attacks without the arms anyway and they still meet the "wielded firearm" requirement of leaping shot.
That was a very long message board rules discussion where no one seemed to know the answer. Between the 17 different interpretations and the enormous headache it is for a DM to track down, absorb, and reach a conclusion , this is a concept that should be avoided with dual wielded 10 foot poles.
The answers from SKR got confusing, but the FAQ linky is a very clear no.
It absolutely is more attacks than you otherwise would get by taking the same action. You are literally trying to get more attacks during a use of Leaping Shot Deed by virtue of having Vestigial Arms; it doesn't matter if you can get to the same number of attacks by using a different attack method.
Thanks for responding! Your statement is not quite correct for the scenario i put forward. You get the same number of attacks with the full round action in both instances. 4 total. Allow me to walk you through it.
A full attack action with Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, and 6 BAB is 4 attacks. You have 4 attacks at this point using 2 arms, albeit with negatives. Correct me if I'm incorrect here.
You then dip into Alchemist and get the extra discovery feat to get two vestigial limbs. The discovery states that the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist's attack routine (using two-weapon fighting).
So at this point you can 4 attacks using 4 arms, 1 attack per arm. Same number of attacks you had before getting the arms. Correct?
If you have the pre-requirements above, and then also went the 3 feats deep into getting Leaping shot and had a gun in each hand, then you would still only get 4 attacks. No extra attacks have been added.
Thoughts?
Two weapon fighting is not the same full round action as not two weapon fighting.
Bloodscale, what you are, at BEST, going to come out with is an argument that something is allowed. Not a rule. An argument you're going to have to have every. single. time. you use the ability. That makes it an incredibly poor fit for the rotating DM pool of PFS.
If two feats or abilities contradict each other, it's not clear which one should take priority. Does one "overwrite" the other? There's always the interpretation that if one says you can't, you simply can't. A positive times a negative results in a negative. If you want to be conservative, that's the easiest approach until you've found evidence to the contrary.
You're missing the point: four attacks with Leaping Shot Deed is more than two attacks with Leaping Shot Deed.Per the FAQ, you cannot make more attacks with a Vestigial Arm than you can make without. Without a Vestigial Arm, you can make two hands worth of attacks with Leaping Shot Deed, so with a Vestigial Arm, you can still only make two hands worth of attacks with Leaping Shot Deed.
As BNW keeps trying to point out, you cannot compare different attack methods for this; you have to compare the exact attack method, with and without Vestigial Arm. In other words, you can't compare Leaping Shot Deed with a Vestigial Arm to a full attack with Two-Weapon Fighting; you have to compare Leaping Shot Deed with a Vestigial Arm to Leaping Shot Deed without one.
Fair enough, I see your logic there for Vestigial Arm. What are your thoughts on the Juggler Bard Archetype instead with leaping shot?
The a juggler can hold and wield (in other words, “juggle”) up to three items or weapons in his hands. The juggler must be able to hold and wield an object in one hand in order to juggle it.
This ability doesn’t grant the juggler additional attacks, though it does allow him to use different weapons as part of a full attack.
It seems like I could effectively wield up to 3 guns at a time with this class feature. It states that it doesn't grant attacks but that each of the weapons could be used as a part of a full attack.
If your BAB was high enough for three attacks, that'd be perfect.
Is the 12 BAB really necessary thought? Leaping Shot isn't based of iterative attacks, just the number of loaded firearms being wielded.
Leaping Shot:
As a full-round action, you can move up to your speed and make firearm attacks at your highest base attack bonus with each loaded firearm you are wielding.
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If your BAB was high enough for three attacks, that'd be perfect.Is the 12 BAB really necessary thought? Leaping Shot isn't based of iterative attacks, just the number of loaded firearms being wielded.
Leaping Shot:
As a full-round action, you can move up to your speed and make firearm attacks at your highest base attack bonus with each loaded firearm you are wielding.
You're not quoting the whole ability.
EDIT: Apologies. You did. I'm getting all these similar abilities mixed up.
I'm likening this to a character with a weapon in each hand, a boulder helmet on their head, a blade boot on each foot, spiked armor, and elbows as unarmed strikes: just because you're wielding all of those weapons doesn't mean you can use them all in a full attack.
I believe those specifics were hashed out during the Defending Weapon debates years ago.
If your BAB was high enough for three attacks, that'd be perfect.Is the 12 BAB really necessary thought? Leaping Shot isn't based of iterative attacks, just the number of loaded firearms being wielded.
Leaping Shot:
As a full-round action, you can move up to your speed and make firearm attacks at your highest base attack bonus with each loaded firearm you are wielding.You're not quoting the whole ability.
EDIT: Apologies. You did. I'm getting all these similar abilities mixed up.
I'm likening this to a character with a weapon in each hand, a boulder helmet on their head, a blade boot on each foot, spiked armor, and elbows as unarmed strikes: just because you're wielding all of those weapons doesn't mean you can use them all in a full attack.
I believe those specifics were hashed out during the Defending Weapon debates years ago.
So if I understand this correctly; if i'm holding two guns in my hand I can fire them both as part of the leaping shot action. This is possible because there is no limit on amount of guns that can be fired from besides the fact that they need to be wielded at the time of making the action.
I cannot use this in conjunction with Vestigial Arm or Combat juggling even though they do allow wielding more weapons than two, because they have text stating that they cannot get extra attacks. We are interpreting non-extra attacks as meaning iterative attacks as those are multiple attacks that can be made without extra hands.
How do things that give you more attacks for full attacks or during full round actions function with Leaping Shot though?
Rapid Shot: When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this round at your highest bonus. All of your attack rolls take a –2 penalty when using Rapid Shot.
Ninja Ki Pool:By spending 1 point from her ki pool, a ninja can make one additional attack at her highest attack bonus, but she can do so only when making a full attack.
Does a Full Round Action where you attack = a Full Attack Action for purposes of these items, am I able to fire off an additional 2 times during Leaping shot if I use these two feats?
"Full Attack Action" is a specific defined action in the CRB (pg 187); it is not any full-round action where you attack. As Leaping Shot Deed is not a full attack action, you cannot get additional attacks with it from Rapid Shot or a ki pool.
I thought as much, thanks for the clarification