| Lady Platypus |
I'm back and I need some serious help!
With a friend of mine we would like to build a character (technically two characters) that resembles Cho'Gall from the Warcraft universe. (We thought about it while playing HotS).
The character will be played by both of us at the same time, meaning it's technically two character that share one body.
For future reference, I'll call the melee build "FIST" and the caster build "MIND".
At first we thought that FIST should control the body, while MIND being kinda like a passenger, able only to control his own head.
That would mean:
- 1 HP pool, from FIST
- FIST's Fortitude and Reflex saves
- Will saves would be different for each head. Touch spells would hit FIST for sure, but plenty other spells would hit either both, or one of them at random (coin toss)
- AC from FIST
- MIND would be unable to move any part of the body, other than his own head, meaning spells with Somatic or Material components would be unusable (or would require help from FIST at least; even in that case, Somatic would be an issue due to the high spell failure from FIST armor)
- We have no idea how to manage ability scores. If we keep them separated, FIST would need all 3 physical plus WIS at least for his will saves. While MIND could heavily dump STR, CON and even DEX if he doesn't care too much about Init (being unable to do any other DEX-related activity), which would allow him to get score too high with a point buy system.
Another option would be to have:
- Shared HP pool, FIST+MIND (which would mean having high HP)
- Fortitude for FIST only, Reflex and Will for each (think about Gall's "Nudge" from HotS, allowing him to slightly move Cho to avoid something)
- One shared ability score pool, with a little bump on their points (eg. if the other players have 20 point buy, giving them maybe 30 points could be fair; in the end, they would have to boost both physical and mental stats)
We also thought about actually building two separate character that stick on the same square (like a swarm or something), but it would make MIND way too vulnerable to go in melee with his own body (imagine a wizard or another caster go in melee all the time)
Those are just some ideas, I would like to hear from you how you would fix it.
Another major problem is concentration: if they have one body, MIND would cause AoO every time he casts a spell, or he would have to constantly cast defensively. An alternative would be to never cause AoO while casting, since technically FIST is controlling 90% of the body... but that would be OP too...
One more thing: skill points. If we keep them as two different character, MIND could completely avoid any movement-related skill, including stuff that only requires the use of your hands.
If we add ranks from both to a single dice roll, it would be good sometimes and bad others:
- Rolling 1d20+5 for each head to Perception is (IMHO) better than a single 1d20+10, since a single success is enough to spot/hear the danger.
- Rolling 1d20+5 for each head to Climb is worse than a single 1d20+10, since you would need both of them to succeed to climb.
Also, as for the Climb example, it would make NO SENSE to have MIND roll it...
I think I wrote enough already, I want to hear your opinions and how you would house rule to make it balanced, so that it isn't too OP compared to a single party member, but neither much worse than having two separate character.
Remember, it's supposed to be played by TWO PEOPLE. Any advice is welcome!
| Lady-J |
they should use the better of the saves for all saves using "fists" fort and "minds" will while taking the average for the reflex, if doing point buy they should get x2 the points to work with but would share all stats(ie no dumping unless its not needed) give them a race feat that makes spells not provoke aoo's but costs them an amount of ac
| Lady Platypus |
We did think about taking the best saves, but it would be much stronger than the average player. I guess an average could work.
Twice the points is too much, it allows for too high scores... Take a standard 15 point buy, would get them to a 30 point buy, which allows for huge scores on all stats. Maybe going just one step higher (+5 points) would be enough? Or two at best (+10)
I do like the idea of a special feat for that, great suggestion!
| Lady-J |
We did think about taking the best saves, but it would be much stronger than the average player. I guess an average could work.
Twice the points is too much, it allows for too high scores... Take a standard 15 point buy, would get them to a 30 point buy, which allows for huge scores on all stats. Maybe going just one step higher (+5 points) would be enough? Or two at best (+10)
I do like the idea of a special feat for that, great suggestion!
if they are forced to share stats they need high stats(they are 2 characters after all and unlike the normal character they wouldn't really get any points back for dumping stats like other characters could other characters could dump 3 stats to 7 and still have a decent character and have 12 extra points to work with were as these guys would not be able to do that and might be able to get away with getting 4 extra points for dumping charisma if neither of them need it so a character dumping in a 15 point buy would be at 27 points vs their 34 points not really much more powerful than the other character
also if you do average for all saves would suggest either average+1 or average +2 so that if one of their saves is not really that good they still have a some what okish save in that save
| Bober |
Instead of going with the point buy, use the classic rolls (4d6) to determine the scores. Since they technically have 1 body but two minds, they would roll 9 scores instead of 6, and then apply them to a shared STR, DEX, CON and to each of their mental abilities. That way they would have to decide together which score goes where, and balance it on their own.
This would solve the problem with WILL saves, each would have his own. As for Fortitude, the highest score would be picked, while Reflex would probably be an average.
How about a special Drawback? Something like that if one wants to do something that the other would never do, they have to succeed a Will save of some sort, to see if they can force themselves to do it, or if the other manages to take over and stop them. Or roll at the beginning of each day, to see who actually controls the body, allowing MIND to take over sometimes.
The main issue about the body is:
- If each has the control of one arm, FIST is gonna have huge issues in combat. He would be forced to having a 1H weapon, and couldn't do some stuff like grapple, ever.
- If FIST has control of both, MIND can't cast any spell with somatic components, and could hardly cast something with material ones.
The solution can be a caster class that doesn't use somatic components. The Psion 3.5 is like that if I remember correctly.
Or add a third arm, creating a specific race for them with the race creation tool, but it would go far from the original idea.
| Lady-J |
Instead of going with the point buy, use the classic rolls (4d6) to determine the scores. Since they technically have 1 body but two minds, they would roll 9 scores instead of 6, and then apply them to a shared STR, DEX, CON and to each of their mental abilities. That way they would have to decide together which score goes where, and balance it on their own.
This would solve the problem with WILL saves, each would have his own. As for Fortitude, the highest score would be picked, while Reflex would probably be an average.
How about a special Drawback? Something like that if one wants to do something that the other would never do, they have to succeed a Will save of some sort, to see if they can force themselves to do it, or if the other manages to take over and stop them. Or roll at the beginning of each day, to see who actually controls the body, allowing MIND to take over sometimes.
The main issue about the body is:
- If each has the control of one arm, FIST is gonna have huge issues in combat. He would be forced to having a 1H weapon, and couldn't do some stuff like grapple, ever.
- If FIST has control of both, MIND can't cast any spell with somatic components, and could hardly cast something with material ones.The solution can be a caster class that doesn't use somatic components. The Psion 3.5 is like that if I remember correctly.
Or add a third arm, creating a specific race for them with the race creation tool, but it would go far from the original idea.
easy fix with the proposed racial feat also make his spells psychic for no semantic components so he wont need the arms as much
| ngc7293 |
I have a feeling this isn't what you want (otherwise you would have thought of it already) but why not the Summoner. You get the Summoner (Mind) and Eidolon (Fist). If you are careful how you build it, you could make a Sythesist Summoner. Mind and Fist would be in the same location. Mind would have the Mental stats and Fist would have the Physical stats.
As the book says, you can have the Eidolon look however you like. Though looking at Cho'Gall, I would say 'with in reason'.
| Lady-J |
I have a feeling this isn't what you want (otherwise you would have thought of it already) but why not the Summoner. You get the Summoner (Mind) and Eidolon (Fist). If you are careful how you build it, you could make a Sythesist Summoner. Mind and Fist would be in the same location. Mind would have the Mental stats and Fist would have the Physical stats.
As the book says, you can have the Eidolon look however you like. Though looking at Cho'Gall, I would say 'with in reason'.
the edolons don't really have a mind of their own they just do what their summoner wants them to do even more so with synthesist don't get me wrong im not calling edolons mindless but their mind really isn't their own kinda
| Lady Platypus |
I like the rolls idea, it might work!
Traits and Drawbacks are of secondary importance for now.
No additional arms, the build has to be as similar to the original Cho'Gall as possible.
I've looked into the Eidolon, and I think it could work if it was one player commanding everything. But since we want to be two players in the same body, one would end up playing the Eidolon with its limits; I don't see it happening...
Thanks for the tips!
| dharkus |
can't believe no-one's suggested it yet - have you looked at gestalt? might be exactly what you're looking for - it's from 3.5e, easily adapatable - 2 classes at once, take best for bab, saves, skill points etc. You might want to change it a bit but it's pretty close to what you're looking for I think
| Lady Platypus |
I did look at gestalt, and it doesn't work for a simple reason: this is supposed to be a two player's character. Gestalt are great, but while you get 2 classes and all the best stuff, you still have the default actions at your disposal: 1 swift action, 1 move action, 1 standard action. There is no way for two player to share a gestalt character without taking turns (they couldn't act on the same turn)
If I apply the gestalt rules to my concept, I fear it would end up to be much stronger than two separate characters.