So we're going to play Slumbering Tsar Saga...

[Kavenoff]

...and we have no idea what the party makeup is going to be.

We know that it's wise to fill the obvious two roles (damage, support), and we can pick our races and classes on our own. No crafting, no Mythic, but Prestige class(es) (that we qualify for) are leveled at the same time as the base class(es), except without BAB or saves.

We've been using a preset stat spread of 18,16,14,12,10,8 (not in stat order, and pre-racial) with permission of the GM, but he seems to be frustrated with how easily we kill things in Rise of the Runelords.

My only question is this: What kind of stats are reasonable for this campaign, enough to give the party a rather tough challenge without it being either too easy or too hard? Is 20-point buy too low? Etc.

Thanks in advance.

[Alaric the Barbarian]

Having played through the Slumbering Tsar I can tell you it is not a cake walk and if your GM believes that you have walked through AP's before this will be the exception. This is a player killer and I believe that a 20 point buy is too low.

[Kavenoff]

What would you suggest, then?

[GM Rednal]

In fairness, Runelords isn't a terribly challenging Adventure Path.

That said, I suggest building your characters while referencing this chart. Your characters should be aiming for green numbers (not blue - blue is the highest you should plausibly need, and usually only happens through the sort of min-maxing your GM would probably prefer you avoid).

I would recommend trying to fill all eight of the major roles - battlefield control, buffer, damage dealer, debuffer, healer, skill monkey, tank, and utility. Each person should try to cover two (and most classes naturally do at least two anyway, so it works out). That, and make like members of the Pathfinder Society and cooperate with your tactics.

Anyway, Slumbering Tsar is a Frog God Games product. It's not as deadly as Rappan Athuk, but it's meant to be hard. Also, link this to your GM. It should help them ensure that things remain at the appropriate difficulty level.

[citricking]

Quote:

I would recommend trying to fill all eight of the major roles - battlefield control, buffer, damage dealer, debuffer, healer, skill monkey, tank, and utility. Each person should try to cover two (and most classes naturally do at least two anyway, so it works out). That, and make like members of the Pathfinder Society and cooperate with your tactics.

What do you mean by utility in this context? What are the abilities do you need to fill this role? Teleportation?

[GM Rednal]

Broadly speaking, Utility is "Non-combat and typically non-skill check solutions for problems". This covers things like safely getting to destinations (including good teleportation, yes), hauling your loads of treasure around, protecting the party at camp, creating the magical gear the party will want, and so on. Basically, all the extra fiddly bits a party that wants to survive will need.

There's a lot you can do even with mundane gear if you're creative - much of utility is in how you approach problems, not just what powers your class gives you.

[silverhair2008]

What does EDV mean?

[Alex Smith 908]

Expected Damage Value

[GM Rednal]

There's a blog link in the second row of the chart that explains all the numbers and reasoning in detail - it's definitely worth a look.

[BPorter]

If you're going into this asking "is 20-point buy too low" you are already off track.

Slumbering Tsar is from Frog God Games, where one of the primary design philosophies is that smart play trumps stats, an underpinning of their "1st Edition Feel" roots. From interviews and what I've read from developers, most roll stats, either straight 3d6 or 4d6, drop the lowest. The latter can certainly exceed a 20-point buy but it's certainly not commonplace.

I'm running 3 campaigns in the Lost Lands, the setting that is home to Slumbering Tsar. I build out NPCs & monsters from Lost Lands products in Hero Lab. Many adhere to 15-point builds, some are higher, some are lower.

Now, I'm not saying stats aren't important, but they aren't nearly as important as the optimizer crowd makes them out to be. If you're playing in a Lost Lands product such as Slumbering Tsar and having an easy time of it, your GM needs to improve his/her game. They're supposed to be hard, they reward smart play, and have no problem including encounters or areas that aren't "CR appropriate".

They're freaking great!

Covering roles is of much greater import than high stats.