"Physical Description: A typical potion or oil consists of 1 ounce of liquid held in a ceramic or glass vial fitted with a tight stopper. The stoppered container is usually no more than 1 inch wide and 2 inches high. The vial has AC 13, 1 hit point, hardness 1, and a break DC of 12."
"An enemy may direct an attack of opportunity against the potion or oil container rather than against the character. A successful attack of this sort can destroy the container, preventing the character from drinking the potion or applying the oil."
If I'm understanding this correctly, if an enemy tries to drink a potion you can attack the potion and destroy it. Also, the AC for this attack is always 13 -- no matter if the enemy has 10, 30, or 50 AC. And typical potions literally break if you can do 2 damage.
Of course, all's fair in love and war...so the reverse is true. Which leads me to a few questions:
1, is my analysis correct so far?
2, is there any way to prevent a potion from being targeted by an AoO?
3, is there any way to make the potion harder to hit than AC 13?
4, is there a way to make a sturdier potion bottle?
5, are there any other solutions to make drinking a potion in combat workable?
I believe trying to break anything an opponent has is a sunder Combat maneuver, but I'm not certain.
Balkoth wrote: "Physical Description: A typical potion or oil consists of 1 ounce of liquid held in a ceramic or glass vial fitted with a tight stopper. The stoppered container is usually no more than 1 inch wide and 2 inches high. The vial has AC 13, 1 hit point, hardness 1, and a break DC of 12."
"An enemy may direct an attack of opportunity against the potion or oil container rather than against the character. A successful attack of this sort can destroy the container, preventing the character from drinking the potion or applying the oil."
If I'm understanding this correctly, if an enemy tries to drink a potion you can attack the potion and destroy it. Also, the AC for this attack is always 13 -- no matter if the enemy has 10, 30, or 50 AC. And typical potions literally break if you can do 2 damage.
Of course, all's fair in love and war...so the reverse is true. Which leads me to a few questions:
1, is my analysis correct so far?
2, is there any way to prevent a potion from being targeted by an AoO?
3, is there any way to make the potion harder to hit than AC 13?
4, is there a way to make a sturdier potion bottle?
5, are there any other solutions to make drinking a potion in combat workable?
1. Yes
2. Potion Glutton feat ( Faq'd to drink as a move action that doesn't provoke)
3. Not that I know of
4. Iron Vial (adamantine vial should be possible)
5. Poisoner's Gloves or Sipping Jacket.
1) Yes
2) If it was invisible
3) Officially not that I know of but you could add the DEX bonus of the creature holding it (if positive)
4) Sure you can make an adamantine vial if you wanted to.
5) There was a feat that allowed you to drink it as a move action and not provoke AoO, but I think it was in the 3.5 PF books. I think the upgraded PF feat still allows to drink as a move action but still provokes (I'm at work and d20pfsrd is blocked so I cant check)
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Those stats listed are for a potion sitting unattended. Attended objects use different rules. Your best bet is to use something like Shatter or the sunder maneuver.
Do a 5' step away and down the hatch! Btw a potion held is an attended object so its AC is = 10 + your DEX mod + size mod
The AC 13 comes from unnatended object which is = 10 + 8 (size mod) - 5 (-5 DEX mod)
Chess Pwn wrote: I believe trying to break anything an opponent has is a sunder Combat maneuver, but I'm not certain. It reads as if the triggering action allows the attacker to target the bottle directly. Sunder would be for a held potion bottle not currently being used.
SlimGauge wrote: Those stats listed are for a potion sitting unattended. Attended objects use different rules. Your best bet is to use something like Shatter or the sunder maneuver.
"Using a potion or oil provokes attacks of opportunity. An enemy may direct an attack of opportunity against the potion or oil container rather than against the character. A successful attack of this sort can destroy the container, preventing the character from drinking the potion or applying the oil."
Potions have specific rules to allow attacks of opportunity against the container.
William Werminster wrote: Do a 5' step away and down the hatch! Step Up and Reach both counter that. As does being flanked.
Balkoth wrote: William Werminster wrote: Do a 5' step away and down the hatch! Step Up and Reach both counter that. As does being flanked. Interesting. I think that could perfectly fit the definiton of a 'being screwed' condition.
William Werminster wrote: Interesting. I think that could perfectly fit the definiton of a 'being screwed' condition. So if an semi-intelligent creature with 10 foot reach or Step Up is standing next to you, you'd consider that "being screwed?"
Or two random semi-intelligent creatures flanking you?
Balkoth wrote: William Werminster wrote: Interesting. I think that could perfectly fit the definiton of a 'being screwed' condition. So if an semi-intelligent creature with 10 foot reach or Step Up is standing next to you, you'd consider that "being screwed?"
Or two random semi-intelligent creatures flanking you? Context is important. If you are a squishy wizard, you could be facing an untimely end. If you are a barbarian you may be fine.
Well he has reasons to argue. My mind automatically assumed that we were talking about healing potions, and afaik he can't read minds miles away.
In short, as Gallant Armor said, contextual.
Healing potions are one aspect, sure, but I was also thinking of stuff like Invisibility, Displacement, Protection from Evil, Bull's Strength, etc.
You should have some good options listed above to deal with the issue.
1. Potion Glutton: Prerequisite(s): Worshiper of a god of gluttony, disease, and undeath.
2. Iron Vial: "This metal potion bottle has hardness 5, 3 hit points, and a break DC of 14." Oh, okay, we just need to do 8 total damage now. Potentially an Adamantine Vial? Person here calculated it as "20 hardness and 5 hit points" so still only 25 damage to break. Something like a Fire Giant does 3d6+15 (or 25.5) without Power Attack.
3. Poisoner's Gloves (besides the problematic name) occupies the hand slots and only work twice a day total. Sipping Jacket is literally only once per day.
Can I just houserule potions to have higher HP and/or hardness? Or make Iron Vials/Adamantine Vials better? Or alter those items? Or change the requirements for the feat? Sure. But at that point I could also just say "No AoOs on potions" and avoid the whole issue.
You can houserule whatever you would like. You would also have to consider the intelligence of the attacker and if they would be able to know what a potion is and that they should prevent their enemy from drinking it.
If a tactic has an associated risk I don't think that you should remove that risk without a cost to the player.
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Gallant Armor wrote: SlimGauge wrote: Those stats listed are for a potion sitting unattended. Attended objects use different rules. Your best bet is to use something like Shatter or the sunder maneuver.
"Using a potion or oil provokes attacks of opportunity. An enemy may direct an attack of opportunity against the potion or oil container rather than against the character. A successful attack of this sort can destroy the container, preventing the character from drinking the potion or applying the oil."
Potions have specific rules to allow attacks of opportunity against the container. While the rules apparently allow for attacking the potion directly (without explicitly calling it a sunder maneuver), we still need to use the rules for attacking attended objects to successfully attack the potion - not its unattended AC of 13.
What is the AC of an attended object? Well, that comes back to the sunder maneuver, as the only way to target an attended object is with a combat maneuver - sunder, steal, disarm.
So... I don't think we actually have an exception to the rules here regarding potions, but rather a reminder, or called out option, that instead of attacking the character, you could attack their potion (via sunder), even if the text on potions doesn't explicitly call out to use the sunder maneuver. This is simply a case of sub-optimal wording in the text IMO.
In other words, if this really is an exception to attacking an attended object without using sunder, then we really need more details about the target AC of the attended object. And a list of target AC's for every conceivable container that a potion could be contained within. E.g, what if I pour my potion into a mug while sitting in the pub, and decide to drink it when a brawl breaks out? What's the AC of the mug? Or wineskin? Or.... etc.
Gallant Armor wrote: If a tactic has an associated risk I don't think that you should remove that risk without a cost to the player. Drinking a potion already triggers an AoO from every threatening opponent (or two if the opponent has something like Combat Reflexes) and uses your entire turn. That risk is still quite real.
Balkoth wrote: Gallant Armor wrote: If a tactic has an associated risk I don't think that you should remove that risk without a cost to the player. Drinking a potion already triggers an AoO from every threatening opponent (or two if the opponent has something like Combat Reflexes) and uses your entire turn. That risk is still quite real. I meant risk more in the sense of casting a spell in melee and risking losing the spell without getting any benefit.
Gallant Armor wrote: I meant risk more in the sense of casting a spell in melee and risking losing the spell without getting any benefit. Casting a spell in melee...
A, gives you a concentration check if hit to try to keep the spell
B, gives you the option of casting defensively to not trigger an AoO at all (and making concentration checks on lower level spells is pretty easy in mid to upper levels)
C, lets you make full use of your AC and defensive buffs (like Mirror Image or Stoneskin) when you trigger an AoO
D, only triggers one AoO, not two
The two situations seem very dissimilar.
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Balkoth wrote: 1. Potion Glutton: Prerequisite(s): Worshiper of a god of gluttony, disease, and undeath. Don't treat d20pfsrd as a definitive rules source, as it is not. The actual feat has a prerequisite that you worship Urgathoa. If you do not use the Pathfinder deities in your setting, then sure, you can file off Urgathoa into what d20pfsrd has.
For the OP, if a 5' step isn't going to get you out of the way, just use a move action to move out of the way (provoking AoO due to movement, although you can attempt an Acrobatics check to avoid this), then drink the potion once you're out of reach of your enemies. That way you don't risk the potion getting destroyed if you'd be in a situation where you absolutely must drink the potion (and thus would be provoking AoO either way).
skizzerz wrote: For the OP, if a 5' step isn't going to get you out of the way, just use a move action to move out of the way (provoking AoO due to movement, although you can attempt an Acrobatics check to avoid this), then drink the potion once you're out of reach of your enemies. Can you actually draw the potion as part of that movement, though?
In 3.5 there was an item (potion belt or something) that let you pack 6 or 10 potions/vials and retrieve'em as a swift action.
You could also soften the requisite for the Potion Glutton feat (and rename it imo, Swift drinker maybe?) and make it a feat for everyone.
An item+feat seems a fair trade. But that's entirely up to you liking.
I'm seeing a bunch of conflicting opinions in this thread about targeting a potion (or oil) during an AoO.
Do you...
A.) Use the sunder rules to target the potion versus the potion drinker's CMD when the AoO is made?
-1A.) If so, this means the potion drinker gets an AoO against you if you don't have Improved Sunder, correct?
B.) Roll a normal attack versus the AC of the potion (13)?
C.) Roll a normal attack versus the attended object rules for the potion, which would make the potion's AC 10 + opponent's DEX modifier + size bonus(+ deflection bonus?)?
Or D.) None of the above. In which case supply your own formula with reasoning why.
MySinIsPride wrote: I'm seeing a bunch of conflicting opinions in this thread about targeting a potion (or oil) during an AoO. The threatening creature gets an AoO against you and can choose to sunder the potion. If making a sunder attempt would provoke an AoO from them, then it does so.
The wording in Drinking a Potion about the vial being able to be targeted is a hold-over from 3.X when the Sunder maneuver was not specifically listed under attack options (options that could be taken with an AoO or in place of a melee attack). Sunder had its own listing and it was not entirely clear. While Sunder is clearly allowed now, the wording in Drink a Potion or Oil and targeting the vial was probably left in because it doesn't really contradict anything.
Gallant Armor wrote: I meant risk more in the sense of casting a spell in melee and risking losing the spell without getting any benefit. There have been a few good suggestions to avoid an AoO. Sipping Jackets, certain feats (which may or may not be available to all PCs), etc. You could also just take an action that Provokes an AoO (like moving away) and then drink it after taking the hit (assuming we're not talking about it being a healing potion because you're about to die.) Yes, Combat Reflexes would allow a threatening creature to take more AoOs if you provoke, but since your movement should have carried you away from reach (and they can't use Step Up for more than 5 or 10 feet if they've got a better version) you're likely away.
But if we're talking about a caster, then a wand would be a better option, usually cheaper (since it's restricted to classes with the spell on list) so getting one with a couple charges likely works out comparably to a potion's price (and can higher level spells). Using a wand won't provoke.
Balkoth wrote: 2. Iron Vial: "This metal potion bottle has hardness 5, 3 hit points, and a break DC of 14." Oh, okay, we just need to do 8 total damage now. Potentially an Adamantine Vial? Person here calculated it as "20 hardness and 5 hit points" so still only 25 damage to break. Something like a Fire Giant does 3d6+15 (or 25.5) without Power Attack. Well... we are talking about a giant; creatures known for their immense strength and basically hitting and crushing something the size of your thumb with a large-size axe or hammer. But also... that's 25.5 damage that could have hit you instead. So if it was a healing potion you needed... you'd probably be dead anyway and, if not, that damage is more than any healing potion likely would have healed. If it wasn't a healing potion... then he's used his AoO and you should run. If that potion was life-or-death... then sometimes you just gotta die.
Pizza Lord wrote: MySinIsPride wrote: I'm seeing a bunch of conflicting opinions in this thread about targeting a potion (or oil) during an AoO. The threatening creature gets an AoO against you and can choose to sunder the potion. If making a sunder attempt would provoke an AoO from them, then it does so.
The wording in Drinking a Potion about the vial being able to be targeted is a hold-over from 3.X when the Sunder maneuver was not specifically listed under attack options (options that could be taken with an AoO or in place of a melee attack). Sunder had its own listing and it was not entirely clear. While Sunder is clearly allowed now, the wording in Drink a Potion or Oil and targeting the vial was probably left in because it doesn't really contradict anything. Initially my thought was that you use your CMB vs the defender's CMD in order to sunder the potion (using the sunder combat maneuver rules), but the text isn't super clear if that's the proper thing to do.
However, in the 3.5 player's handbook it says this (pg 158):
Sundering a Carried or Worn Object: You don’t use an opposed attack roll to damage a carried or worn object. Instead, just make an attack roll against the object’s AC. A carried or worn object’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character.
I know this is Pathfinder, but Pathfinder was built using 3.5 as its foundation so it warrants looking at the 3.5 rules to gain some amount of perspective on a very non-specific Pathfinder rule about targeting potions during attacks of opportunity.
3.0 and 3.5 didn't use CMB and CMD though, so probably better to use the system Pathfinder uses for combat maneuvers. The 3.X system did lead to some odd situations where it was almost easier to cut a guy's boots off his feet than it was to hit him, or where someone's ring of protection was easier to strike than the person wearing it because it didn't get the deflection bonus according to some readings.
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